I don’t know where you get “don’t ask people for examples of their claims” from and it sounds like a straw man[3]
[3] I think the things Duncan has actually said are more like “Said engages in unproductive modes of discussion where he is constantly demanding more and more rigour and detail from his interlocutors while not providing it himself”, and wherever that lands on a scale from “100% truth” to “100% bullshit” it is not helpful to pretend that he said “it is bad to ask people for examples of their claims”
If “asking people for examples of their claims” doesn’t fit Duncan’s stated criteria for what constitutes acceptable engagement/criticism, then it is not pretending, but in fact accurate, to describe Duncan as advocating for a norm of “don’t ask people for examples of their claims”. (See, for example, this subthread on this very post, where Duncan alludes to good criticism requiring that the critic “[put] forth at least half of the effort required to bridge the inferential gap between you and the author as opposed to expecting them to connect all the dots themselves”. Similar descriptions and rhetoric can be found in many of Duncan’s recent posts and comments.)
Duncan has, I think, made it very clear that that a comment that just says “what are some examples of this claim?” is, in his view, unacceptable. That’s what I was talking about. I really do not think it’s controversial at all to ascribe this opinion to Duncan.
Duncan has, I think, made it very clear that that a comment that just says “what are some examples of this claim?” is, in his view, unacceptable. That’s what I was talking about. I really do not think it’s controversial at all to ascribe this opinion to Duncan.
No. I have never said any such thing, and you will not be able to back this up. You are, in the comment above, either lying or stupendously bad at reading comprehension. I do not hold such a stance, and provide examples to people who ask for them on the regular, and ask people for examples myself.
(In the subthread you link, I am deliberately reflecting back at you your own mode of engagement, in which you make arbitrary demands of your conversational partner; the words of that comment are intentionally almost identical to a comment of yours.)
But I’ve already backed it up, with the link I provided.
(In the subthread you link, I am deliberately reflecting back at you your own mode of engagement, in which you make arbitrary demands of your conversational partner.)
I’ve certainly never made any demand like the one I quoted you as making, so “reflecting back at me” can’t be the explanation there.
Here are more citations for you expressing the sentiment I ascribed to you:
(Of course, that last post was written on April 1st. And, clearly enough, the “PMTMYLW” stuff is a joke. But was the rest of it also a joke? It did not seem to be, but certainly such things can be difficult to be very sure of, on the internet.)
The first link does not support your characterization, and in fact explicitly states that the value of asking for examples is small but definitely real/nonzero. It is disingenuous of you to pretend that this is evidence in favor of your characterization when it directly (though weakly) contradicts it.
The second link is an April Fool’s Day joke, explicitly heralded as such, and it is disingenuous of you to include it, in addition to the fact that it comes nowhere near the topic of asking for examples except in one place where, in the context of an April Fool’s Day joke, the asking-for-examples is clearly one small part of an objectionable pile whose problematic nature is rooted in being a pile.
The third link is to a comment that does not support your characterization, and it is disingenuous of you to pretend it does.
The fourth link is to a comment that does not support your characterization, and it is disingenuous of you to pretend it does.
None of those are remotely close to defending, justifying, or supporting the claim “a comment that just says ‘what are some examples of this claim?’ is unacceptable according to Duncan”.
You’re claiming I believe X, and none of your links are even a Y that strongly implies X, let alone being X directly. Calling them “citations for you expressing the sentiment I ascribed to you” is a blatant falsehood.
I leave it to readers to determine whether my links support my characterization or not. Certainly I think that they do (including, yes, the April Fool’s Day post).
Perhaps you might clarify your views on this topic? It’s always possible that I misinterpreted what you’ve written. (Although, in this case, I think that’s unlikely; and if I am mistaken about that, then I must note that it’s a very reasonable interpretation—the most reasonable one, I’d say—and if your views are other than what they seem to be, then you may wish to clarify. Or not, of course; that’s your call. But then you ought not be surprised when you’re read thus.)
Just noting that, based on the falsehoods above, in which Said explicitly claims that four different links each say something that none of them come even remotely close to saying, I now categorize him as an intentional liar, and will be treating him as such from this point forward.
If “asking people for examples of their claims” doesn’t fit Duncan’s stated criteria for what constitutes acceptable engagement/criticism, then it is not pretending, but in fact accurate, to describe Duncan as advocating for a norm of “don’t ask people for examples of their claims”. (See, for example, this subthread on this very post, where Duncan alludes to good criticism requiring that the critic “[put] forth at least half of the effort required to bridge the inferential gap between you and the author as opposed to expecting them to connect all the dots themselves”. Similar descriptions and rhetoric can be found in many of Duncan’s recent posts and comments.)
Duncan has, I think, made it very clear that that a comment that just says “what are some examples of this claim?” is, in his view, unacceptable. That’s what I was talking about. I really do not think it’s controversial at all to ascribe this opinion to Duncan.
No. I have never said any such thing, and you will not be able to back this up. You are, in the comment above, either lying or stupendously bad at reading comprehension. I do not hold such a stance, and provide examples to people who ask for them on the regular, and ask people for examples myself.
(In the subthread you link, I am deliberately reflecting back at you your own mode of engagement, in which you make arbitrary demands of your conversational partner; the words of that comment are intentionally almost identical to a comment of yours.)
But I’ve already backed it up, with the link I provided.
I’ve certainly never made any demand like the one I quoted you as making, so “reflecting back at me” can’t be the explanation there.
Here are more citations for you expressing the sentiment I ascribed to you:
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/9vjEavucqFnfSEvqk/on-aiming-for-convergence-on-truth#4GACyhtGfgmn4e6Yt
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/LrCt2T5sDn6KcSJgM/repairing-the-effort-asymmetry
(Of course, that last post was written on April 1st. And, clearly enough, the “PMTMYLW” stuff is a joke. But was the rest of it also a joke? It did not seem to be, but certainly such things can be difficult to be very sure of, on the internet.)
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/SX6wQEdGfzz7GKYvp/rationalist-discourse-is-like-physicist-motors#cGYzFnbFhyCYQwNQE
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/SX6wQEdGfzz7GKYvp/rationalist-discourse-is-like-physicist-motors#AuhFdDDzevPiQBqAP
The first link does not support your characterization, and in fact explicitly states that the value of asking for examples is small but definitely real/nonzero. It is disingenuous of you to pretend that this is evidence in favor of your characterization when it directly (though weakly) contradicts it.
The second link is an April Fool’s Day joke, explicitly heralded as such, and it is disingenuous of you to include it, in addition to the fact that it comes nowhere near the topic of asking for examples except in one place where, in the context of an April Fool’s Day joke, the asking-for-examples is clearly one small part of an objectionable pile whose problematic nature is rooted in being a pile.
The third link is to a comment that does not support your characterization, and it is disingenuous of you to pretend it does.
The fourth link is to a comment that does not support your characterization, and it is disingenuous of you to pretend it does.
None of those are remotely close to defending, justifying, or supporting the claim “a comment that just says ‘what are some examples of this claim?’ is unacceptable according to Duncan”.
You’re claiming I believe X, and none of your links are even a Y that strongly implies X, let alone being X directly. Calling them “citations for you expressing the sentiment I ascribed to you” is a blatant falsehood.
I leave it to readers to determine whether my links support my characterization or not. Certainly I think that they do (including, yes, the April Fool’s Day post).
Perhaps you might clarify your views on this topic? It’s always possible that I misinterpreted what you’ve written. (Although, in this case, I think that’s unlikely; and if I am mistaken about that, then I must note that it’s a very reasonable interpretation—the most reasonable one, I’d say—and if your views are other than what they seem to be, then you may wish to clarify. Or not, of course; that’s your call. But then you ought not be surprised when you’re read thus.)
Just noting that, based on the falsehoods above, in which Said explicitly claims that four different links each say something that none of them come even remotely close to saying, I now categorize him as an intentional liar, and will be treating him as such from this point forward.
Please see this comment, where I note, and demonstrate, that the accusation is unsubstantiated and wholly unfair.