I regret your disheartenment. I’m not sure what to do about it, though, so I shall just bear in mind that apparently at least one of us is having trouble understanding at least some of what the other writes and proceed.
Why would we ever want to converge with each other, if not because we believe that this will result in us both being closer to truth than if we had converged less?
As I said in the comment you were replying to, usually convergence-as-such should not be a goal. (I did also give an example of an important class of situations in which it reasonably might be.)
However, I want to register my not-total-agreement with an assumption I think you are making, namely that the only creditable motivation is “a desire to find the truth”. We all have many goals, and finding the truth on any particular issue is never going to be the only one, and there is nothing wrong or disreputable or foolish about doing something for reasons that are not all about optimizing truth-finding on the particular issue at hand.
Again, I don’t think that “end up with my opinion and so-and-so’s opinion closer together” is generally a worthwhile goal. But other related things may be even if optimizing truth-finding is the top-level goal. “Make this place where we try to find the truth together a pleasant place so that more truth-finding can happen here”. “Come to understand one another’s positions better, so that in future discussions our attempts at truth-finding aren’t obstructed by misunderstandings”. “Make it clear that I respect So-and-so, so that it’s less likely that he or others misinterpret something I say as a personal attack”. And other related things may be worthwhile goals although they have little impact on truth-finding efficacy as such. “Have an enjoyable discussion” and “Help the other person have an enjoyable discussion”, for instance. (One reason why people engage in discussion at all, when seeking the truth, rather than spending the time in solitary reading, thinking, etc., is that they enjoy discussion.)
If something isn’t and also shouldn’t be a goal, then we shouldn’t say that we’re aiming for it.
I feel I’ve almost said everything I usefully can on this terminological question, but maybe it’s worth trying the following alternative tack. Since on the whole A and B tend to converge when they both approach the truth, and since this is especially true when the way they approach the truth is by discussing the issue in a manner intended to be mutually helpful, “approaching the truth” and “converging on truth” are both descriptions of the thing they are trying to achieve. Picking “converging on truth” over “approaching the truth” does not have to mean that you advocate pursuing (1) truth and (2) convergence as separate things. It can mean, and I think Duncan did mean, that you advocate pursuing truth, and the particular ways you have in mind for doing so are ones that tend to produce convergence.
Apparently you disagree. Fine. I have already said several times that I don’t think Duncan’s wording was optimal, after all. Something like “Aim to seek the truth together” or “Aim to seek the truth cooperatively” or “Aim to help one another arrive at the truth” would, I think, have expressed much the same idea; of course you might still object to those goals, but we’d at least be arguing about the goals rather than about the words. Still, I think Duncan’s wording is a reasonable way of gesturing at the general idea of working together, seeking mutual understanding, hoping to end up both arriving at the truth (as opposed to e.g. hoping to end up arriving at the truth oneself and rather looking forward to the other guy not getting there so one can prove one’s superiority), and generally trying to treat one another more as teammates than as bitter rivals; maybe you don’t; I am not sure that there is any value in further argument about the words as opposed to the ideas.
If you think that talking with intelligent climate skeptics is a more effective way to get closer to the truth (in expectation) than perusing IPCC reports [...]
I don’t think it is necessary to think that in order for talking with an intelligent climate skeptic to be useful and to be reasonably described as “aiming for truth”. It isn’t the case that only doing the single most truth-productive thing available to you is “aiming for truth”.
Suppose (this is, after all, the situation I was proposing) you are already talking with an intelligent climate skeptic. Then maybe it’s true that (1) in expectation you think you will learn more for a given expenditure of time and effort by reading IPCC reports, but (2) you none the less expect to learn things by talking with the skeptic and (3) you also expect to help the skeptic learn things at the same time, and (4) since you’re already having a discussion it would be rude and annoying to just drop it and say “sorry, I have decided my time would be better spent reading IPCC reports”. I submit that despite (1), (2) justifies saying that the discussion is “aiming for truth” and (3) and (4) are reasons for having that discussion (and for trying to make it a constructive discussion where you try to work together, rather than just dumping quotations from IPCC reports on the skeptic).
a comment like this one is “working together to find the truth” [...] here is what it looks like when someone asks “what are some examples” and you don’t treat it as an attack
I think you are replying not to me but to some imagined version of me that is claiming it’s always wrong to ask people for examples, even though in the comment you are replying to I said the exact opposite of that.
anything which is described by “working together to find the truth”, but which isn’t already included in “aiming for truth” as I understand it, goes in the Bad category.
So, first of all, you’re contradicting yourself, because previously you were putting “aiming to understand one another” not in the Bad category but in the Irrelevant category, and affirming that working towards mutual understanding is a valuable thing even though you would prefer not to describe it as “aiming for convergence on the truth”.
But, aside from that, the difference between “aiming for truth” and “aiming for convergence on the truth”, as I have been conjecturing Duncan meant the term, is not about doing things other than aiming for truth, it’s about selecting particular ways of aiming for truth. (On the grounds 1. that they are ways of aiming for truth, and 2. that they make the place more pleasant for everyone, which 2a. is valuable in itself and 2b. encourages people to engage in discussion here, and 3. that they help not only you but the other party arrive at the truth, which again is valuable in itself, and 4. that they make future discussions more likely to be productive, etc.)
I regret your disheartenment. I’m not sure what to do about it, though, so I shall just bear in mind that apparently at least one of us is having trouble understanding at least some of what the other writes and proceed.
As I said in the comment you were replying to, usually convergence-as-such should not be a goal. (I did also give an example of an important class of situations in which it reasonably might be.)
However, I want to register my not-total-agreement with an assumption I think you are making, namely that the only creditable motivation is “a desire to find the truth”. We all have many goals, and finding the truth on any particular issue is never going to be the only one, and there is nothing wrong or disreputable or foolish about doing something for reasons that are not all about optimizing truth-finding on the particular issue at hand.
Again, I don’t think that “end up with my opinion and so-and-so’s opinion closer together” is generally a worthwhile goal. But other related things may be even if optimizing truth-finding is the top-level goal. “Make this place where we try to find the truth together a pleasant place so that more truth-finding can happen here”. “Come to understand one another’s positions better, so that in future discussions our attempts at truth-finding aren’t obstructed by misunderstandings”. “Make it clear that I respect So-and-so, so that it’s less likely that he or others misinterpret something I say as a personal attack”. And other related things may be worthwhile goals although they have little impact on truth-finding efficacy as such. “Have an enjoyable discussion” and “Help the other person have an enjoyable discussion”, for instance. (One reason why people engage in discussion at all, when seeking the truth, rather than spending the time in solitary reading, thinking, etc., is that they enjoy discussion.)
I feel I’ve almost said everything I usefully can on this terminological question, but maybe it’s worth trying the following alternative tack. Since on the whole A and B tend to converge when they both approach the truth, and since this is especially true when the way they approach the truth is by discussing the issue in a manner intended to be mutually helpful, “approaching the truth” and “converging on truth” are both descriptions of the thing they are trying to achieve. Picking “converging on truth” over “approaching the truth” does not have to mean that you advocate pursuing (1) truth and (2) convergence as separate things. It can mean, and I think Duncan did mean, that you advocate pursuing truth, and the particular ways you have in mind for doing so are ones that tend to produce convergence.
Apparently you disagree. Fine. I have already said several times that I don’t think Duncan’s wording was optimal, after all. Something like “Aim to seek the truth together” or “Aim to seek the truth cooperatively” or “Aim to help one another arrive at the truth” would, I think, have expressed much the same idea; of course you might still object to those goals, but we’d at least be arguing about the goals rather than about the words. Still, I think Duncan’s wording is a reasonable way of gesturing at the general idea of working together, seeking mutual understanding, hoping to end up both arriving at the truth (as opposed to e.g. hoping to end up arriving at the truth oneself and rather looking forward to the other guy not getting there so one can prove one’s superiority), and generally trying to treat one another more as teammates than as bitter rivals; maybe you don’t; I am not sure that there is any value in further argument about the words as opposed to the ideas.
I don’t think it is necessary to think that in order for talking with an intelligent climate skeptic to be useful and to be reasonably described as “aiming for truth”. It isn’t the case that only doing the single most truth-productive thing available to you is “aiming for truth”.
Suppose (this is, after all, the situation I was proposing) you are already talking with an intelligent climate skeptic. Then maybe it’s true that (1) in expectation you think you will learn more for a given expenditure of time and effort by reading IPCC reports, but (2) you none the less expect to learn things by talking with the skeptic and (3) you also expect to help the skeptic learn things at the same time, and (4) since you’re already having a discussion it would be rude and annoying to just drop it and say “sorry, I have decided my time would be better spent reading IPCC reports”. I submit that despite (1), (2) justifies saying that the discussion is “aiming for truth” and (3) and (4) are reasons for having that discussion (and for trying to make it a constructive discussion where you try to work together, rather than just dumping quotations from IPCC reports on the skeptic).
I think you are replying not to me but to some imagined version of me that is claiming it’s always wrong to ask people for examples, even though in the comment you are replying to I said the exact opposite of that.
So, first of all, you’re contradicting yourself, because previously you were putting “aiming to understand one another” not in the Bad category but in the Irrelevant category, and affirming that working towards mutual understanding is a valuable thing even though you would prefer not to describe it as “aiming for convergence on the truth”.
But, aside from that, the difference between “aiming for truth” and “aiming for convergence on the truth”, as I have been conjecturing Duncan meant the term, is not about doing things other than aiming for truth, it’s about selecting particular ways of aiming for truth. (On the grounds 1. that they are ways of aiming for truth, and 2. that they make the place more pleasant for everyone, which 2a. is valuable in itself and 2b. encourages people to engage in discussion here, and 3. that they help not only you but the other party arrive at the truth, which again is valuable in itself, and 4. that they make future discussions more likely to be productive, etc.)