A bit of a side note, but from what I’ve read/heard from Muslims, what they object to isn’t the drawing of Mohammed per se, but the mocking of Mohammed. I’ve also heard some express annoyance that the media would misrepresent their view as if the problem was a religious edict against drawing Mohammed and not the mocking (I don’t think the media represents the views of Muslims any more faithfully than it represents the views of Singularitarians).
If you’re American want a better idea of how Muslims feel, imagine if for some reason Chinese people had a national “draw Martin Luther King with big lips eating watermelon” day. Would the reactions be very different?
If you’re American want a better idea of how Muslims feel, imagine if for some reason Chinese people had a national “draw Martin Luther King with big lips eating watermelon” day. Would the reactions be very different?
A lot of people around the world and in the United States hate the United States and make no secret of it, so we don’t need to imagine. The very fact that you didn’t talk about actual American reactions to the actually expressed loathing for the United States (by mockery of cherished American symbols among other means) suggests that you already intuit that the reaction of the average American to the very visible seething hatred for the US does not give us much of an idea of how Muslims feel.
If you are not aware of the seething hatred for the US, which I think is possible if you live in the US and limit yourself to American mainstream media, it is not because the hatred is not inherently visible—it is, for example by appearing on the covers of major European magazines—but because Americans don’t magnify its visibility within the US by obsessing about it in their own publications. In contrast, the visibility of the notorious cartoons of Mohammed is almost entirely an effect of the extreme reaction to it on the part of many Muslims.
But the US parallel is not even close to the best parallel. Islam isn’t a country, it’s a religion, so a much better parallel would be to Andres Serrano’s Piss Christ, which mocks Jesus Christ, or Chris Ofili’s Holy Virgin Mary, which mocks the mother of Jesus Christ. As far as I know neither of these artists were murdered by a Christian, as the filmmaker Theo Van Gogh was murdered by a Muslim. The Christian reaction to these artistic provocations was massively more muted than the Muslim reaction to the Mohammed cartoons.
I’m well aware of anti-Americanism (I’m French) - I’ve heard my dad cheer when hearing of the death of American soldiers in Iraq, a Chinese student say that he approved of the 9-11 attacks because of America’s support for Taiwan, etc.
(It’s funny you mention the Piss Christ; it was exposed in Avignon (here in France) and yesterday a group of catholics forced their way into the exposition, neutralized a guard and vandalized the photograph with a hammer. A far cry from Theo Van Gogh, I agree, but still not a completely pacifist response.)
A bit of a side note, but from what I’ve read/heard from Muslims, what they object to isn’t the drawing of Mohammed per se, but the mocking of Mohammed.
As far as I know, there are significant differences in this regard between different Islamic denominations, sects, schools, and folk practices, but many Muslims consider even respectful portrayal of Mohammed as unacceptable because it constitutes idolatry. Basically, anyone wishing to portray Mohammed is in a Catch-22 situation: if it’s done in a spirit of veneration, it’s idolatry, and otherwise it’s mocking and disrespectful.
Oh, I agree that representing Mohammed is generally forbidden in Islam, it’s just that when I looked for what the Muslims themselves were saying (on forums mostly frequented by Muslims), they were talking about how it wasn’t right to mock Mohammed, not Mohammed, and they were also complaining about how the media would represent their position (even though some Mulsims do try to pressure the west on any depiction of Mohammed), and they were also complaining about violent fundamentalist hicks giving their religion a bad name.
Rereading my post, it can be interpreted as saying that all Muslims take that position (mocking not good, but no big objection to just drawing Muslims), which would explain the downvotes.
Rereading my post, it can be interpreted as saying that all Muslims take that position (mocking not good, but no big objection to just drawing Muslims), which would explain the downvotes.
I think they have more to do with your false-to-fact comparison with a potential American analog.
I never claimed it was a perfect analogy—I still think it’s a better one than the Salmon Pictures.
How would you personally feel about a national “draw Martin Luther King with big lips eating watermelon” day, done by foreigners? I don’t expect you’d go out and burn stuff, but I also expect you’d prefer it didn’t happen (if this doesn’t apply to you you, it probably does to quite a few Americans on this site, I don’t even know if you’re American). I mean, I tend to be a pro-free-speech bullet biter, but I wouldn’t like it.
And many of the arguments that have been made (here or elswewhere) about Everybody Draw Mohammed Day could be made about that too.
I never claimed it was a perfect analogy—I still think it’s a better one than the Salmon Pictures.
Well you’re right about that at least.
How would you personally feel about a national “draw Martin Luther King with big lips eating watermelon” day, done by foreigners? I don’t expect you’d go out and burn stuff, but I also expect you’d prefer it didn’t happen
That’s precisely the point.
(if this doesn’t apply to you you, it probably does to quite a few Americans on this site, I don’t even know if you’re American). I mean, I tend to be a pro-free-speech bullet biter, but I wouldn’t like it.
Well, after the US Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Westboro Baptist Church’s right to free speech, all the major newspapers ran editorials supporting the decision. In fact, this blog post argues that its easier to support free speech for extreme groups like the WBC since you get free warm fuzzies for supporting free speech without having to worry that they’ll actually persuade anybody.
No, but neither would the brits in the Salmon Scenario. And I don’t think “exposure therapy” would work any better for Martin Luther King caricatures than it would with Mohammed caricatures.
Actually in this particular example I can imagine there being some violence against Chinese Americans and perhaps some disorders, thought not full blown riots. Under worse economic conditions perhaps even this is not out of the picture.
A bit of a side note, but from what I’ve read/heard from Muslims, what they object to isn’t the drawing of Mohammed per se, but the mocking of Mohammed. I’ve also heard some express annoyance that the media would misrepresent their view as if the problem was a religious edict against drawing Mohammed and not the mocking
I agree a lot of Muslims seem to be offended by any depiction of Mohammed—as I said to Vladimir, I was talking of those I have some experience with, i.e. French speaking (which tends to be biased towards the more educated and westernized).
(And come on, the bit about adding “Ali” was a funny and appropriate response, no ? :) )
(And come on, the bit about adding “Ali” was a funny and appropriate response, no ? :) )
It was a lot better and more humorous than other responses. But that point was that they were still offended enough to take that action. (Note also by the way that since this occurred at a major college campus this is presumably some of the more educated and Westernized Muslims).
I find it very normal that they took action—the purpose of the whole “Everybody draw Mohammed day” thing is to annoy Muslims, so a Muslim encountering a drawing of Mohammed in that context (as opposed to in a history book etc.) knows it’s purpose is to offend him or someone like him. Even if he doesn’t mind the actual drawing, he knows about the intent behind the drawing.
If you’re American want a better idea of how Muslims feel, imagine if for some reason Chinese people had a national “draw Martin Luther King with big lips eating watermelon” day. Would the reactions be very different?
That sounds much worse to you than Darkie Toothpaste?
The American reaction has been primarily to write letters.
A bit of a side note, but from what I’ve read/heard from Muslims, what they object to isn’t the drawing of Mohammed per se, but the mocking of Mohammed. I’ve also heard some express annoyance that the media would misrepresent their view as if the problem was a religious edict against drawing Mohammed and not the mocking (I don’t think the media represents the views of Muslims any more faithfully than it represents the views of Singularitarians).
If you’re American want a better idea of how Muslims feel, imagine if for some reason Chinese people had a national “draw Martin Luther King with big lips eating watermelon” day. Would the reactions be very different?
A lot of people around the world and in the United States hate the United States and make no secret of it, so we don’t need to imagine. The very fact that you didn’t talk about actual American reactions to the actually expressed loathing for the United States (by mockery of cherished American symbols among other means) suggests that you already intuit that the reaction of the average American to the very visible seething hatred for the US does not give us much of an idea of how Muslims feel.
If you are not aware of the seething hatred for the US, which I think is possible if you live in the US and limit yourself to American mainstream media, it is not because the hatred is not inherently visible—it is, for example by appearing on the covers of major European magazines—but because Americans don’t magnify its visibility within the US by obsessing about it in their own publications. In contrast, the visibility of the notorious cartoons of Mohammed is almost entirely an effect of the extreme reaction to it on the part of many Muslims.
But the US parallel is not even close to the best parallel. Islam isn’t a country, it’s a religion, so a much better parallel would be to Andres Serrano’s Piss Christ, which mocks Jesus Christ, or Chris Ofili’s Holy Virgin Mary, which mocks the mother of Jesus Christ. As far as I know neither of these artists were murdered by a Christian, as the filmmaker Theo Van Gogh was murdered by a Muslim. The Christian reaction to these artistic provocations was massively more muted than the Muslim reaction to the Mohammed cartoons.
I’m well aware of anti-Americanism (I’m French) - I’ve heard my dad cheer when hearing of the death of American soldiers in Iraq, a Chinese student say that he approved of the 9-11 attacks because of America’s support for Taiwan, etc.
(It’s funny you mention the Piss Christ; it was exposed in Avignon (here in France) and yesterday a group of catholics forced their way into the exposition, neutralized a guard and vandalized the photograph with a hammer. A far cry from Theo Van Gogh, I agree, but still not a completely pacifist response.)
As far as I know, there are significant differences in this regard between different Islamic denominations, sects, schools, and folk practices, but many Muslims consider even respectful portrayal of Mohammed as unacceptable because it constitutes idolatry. Basically, anyone wishing to portray Mohammed is in a Catch-22 situation: if it’s done in a spirit of veneration, it’s idolatry, and otherwise it’s mocking and disrespectful.
Oh, I agree that representing Mohammed is generally forbidden in Islam, it’s just that when I looked for what the Muslims themselves were saying (on forums mostly frequented by Muslims), they were talking about how it wasn’t right to mock Mohammed, not Mohammed, and they were also complaining about how the media would represent their position (even though some Mulsims do try to pressure the west on any depiction of Mohammed), and they were also complaining about violent fundamentalist hicks giving their religion a bad name.
Rereading my post, it can be interpreted as saying that all Muslims take that position (mocking not good, but no big objection to just drawing Muslims), which would explain the downvotes.
I think they have more to do with your false-to-fact comparison with a potential American analog.
I never claimed it was a perfect analogy—I still think it’s a better one than the Salmon Pictures.
How would you personally feel about a national “draw Martin Luther King with big lips eating watermelon” day, done by foreigners? I don’t expect you’d go out and burn stuff, but I also expect you’d prefer it didn’t happen (if this doesn’t apply to you you, it probably does to quite a few Americans on this site, I don’t even know if you’re American). I mean, I tend to be a pro-free-speech bullet biter, but I wouldn’t like it.
And many of the arguments that have been made (here or elswewhere) about Everybody Draw Mohammed Day could be made about that too.
Well you’re right about that at least.
That’s precisely the point.
Well, after the US Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Westboro Baptist Church’s right to free speech, all the major newspapers ran editorials supporting the decision. In fact, this blog post argues that its easier to support free speech for extreme groups like the WBC since you get free warm fuzzies for supporting free speech without having to worry that they’ll actually persuade anybody.
What, you think Americans would react by rioting and killing people?
No, but neither would the brits in the Salmon Scenario. And I don’t think “exposure therapy” would work any better for Martin Luther King caricatures than it would with Mohammed caricatures.
Actually in this particular example I can imagine there being some violence against Chinese Americans and perhaps some disorders, thought not full blown riots. Under worse economic conditions perhaps even this is not out of the picture.
Empirically this isn’t the case. See e.g.the initial cartoon for Everyone Draw Muhammad day which resulted in the artist having to go into hiding from the death threats.
Also if you look at the relevant Wikipedia talk pages, there are almost daily Muslims showing up demanding that we remove all pictures of Muhammad. In another instance, at one college, the Muslim students were sufficiently offended by smiling stick figures labeled Muhammad that they added “Ali” after each so they would instead say they were Muhammad Ali. There might be some moderates claiming to only be offended by mockery, but it seems pretty clear that there are a lot of Muslims who are offended by any attempted depiction.
I agree a lot of Muslims seem to be offended by any depiction of Mohammed—as I said to Vladimir, I was talking of those I have some experience with, i.e. French speaking (which tends to be biased towards the more educated and westernized).
(And come on, the bit about adding “Ali” was a funny and appropriate response, no ? :) )
It was a lot better and more humorous than other responses. But that point was that they were still offended enough to take that action. (Note also by the way that since this occurred at a major college campus this is presumably some of the more educated and Westernized Muslims).
I find it very normal that they took action—the purpose of the whole “Everybody draw Mohammed day” thing is to annoy Muslims, so a Muslim encountering a drawing of Mohammed in that context (as opposed to in a history book etc.) knows it’s purpose is to offend him or someone like him. Even if he doesn’t mind the actual drawing, he knows about the intent behind the drawing.
That doesn’t make sense because the cartoons weren’t actually mocking Mohammed. Have you seen them?
This one and this one are.
These seem more accusatory than mocking.
But surely you see that if Muslims get angry about those pictures, it’s not only because they think visual representations of Mohammed are bad?
That sounds much worse to you than Darkie Toothpaste? The American reaction has been primarily to write letters.