I don’t understand… why bring up an obviously flawed response if you know it’s flawed? I guess I don’t see the point in using something like a tuna sandwhich that a theist will simply reject out of hand rather than explain the problem with the god hypothesis directly.
Even if you insist on using the tuna sandwhich… it still has more issues than the god hypothesis, so I still don’t see the point, I guess.
I did state the problem with the God hypothesis directly; I said:
The problem with the God hypothesis is that it is indistinguishable from innumerable other stories that can be made up to explain the same phenomena, and whose validity is supported equally well by the evidence.
I gave the TSH as an example of ridiculous sounding creation theory that is actually more likely than the God hypothesis, within the space of unfalsifiable theories that the God hypothesis occupies.
To restate this: The God hypothesis is indistinguishable from a story that somebody just made up. For every case that boils down to “God did it”, we can create innumerable equivalent stories that claim “X did it”, for some value of X; with no way to select which story (if any) is correct.
Thanks for clarifying. I think we’re nearly on the same page in that we agree that both hypotheses are ridiculous. The only issue I see with TSH vs. god is that god has been defined as something that is outside time/space, omni-max, etc.
Does that mean anything about the plausibility of such a thing? No way.
But… it has been defined that way, whereas a tuna sandwich will always be confined to time and space. You could fix this by being the sole witness to a tuna sandwich bursting through a rip in space-time and informing you that it was outside time and space.
God, by the apologists’ definition, could actually be more plausible than the tuna sandwich you put together in your kitchen because the tuna sandwich is made of matter and go is defined as not. Matter seems only to exist in space-time and I see that as a strike against the TSH. It runs into objections re. the infinite regress and how it has existed long enough to create the universe from “outside” (or before or however you want to think about it) the universe when it’s made from perishable bread and fish-stuffs.
The only issue I see with TSH vs. god is that god has been defined as something that is outside time/space, omni-max, etc.
Actually, you may not be aware that mayonnaise is critical to universe creation. Since God does not contain mayonnaise the God hypothesis is less plausible than the TSH.
So you claim that existing outside space and time is necessary for the creation of the universe and I claim that mayonnaise is necessary. Do either of these claims allow us to select between the theories? I don’t see how; but by adding these additional requirements we increase the complexity of the theories and reduce their relative likelihood within the set of unfalsifiable theories.
Christian apologists can make compelling arguments because in the realm of made-up-stuff there is plenty that appeals to our cognitive biases. I agree that existing outside of space and time feels like a better property of a universe creator than containing mayonnaise; but that feeling is based from our very human perspective and not from any actual knowledge about how the universe came to be the way we see it now.
Actually, you may not be aware that mayonnaise is critical to universe creation. Since God does not contain mayonnaise the God hypothesis is less plausible than the TSH.
:)
Christian apologists can make compelling arguments because in the realm of made-up-stuff there is plenty that appeals to our cognitive biases. I agree that existing outside of space and time feels like a better property of a universe creator than containing mayonnaise...
Now that was what I needed. As soon as you started going there above with mayonnaise-as-necessity, I started wondering if perhaps I’m just intent on the “outside-time-and-space” requirement because that’s what I’ve always heard debated and argued.
...but that feeling is based from our very human perspective and not from any actual knowledge about how the universe came to be the way we see it now.
And then you actually went there and all is clear.
I don’t understand… why bring up an obviously flawed response if you know it’s flawed? I guess I don’t see the point in using something like a tuna sandwhich that a theist will simply reject out of hand rather than explain the problem with the god hypothesis directly.
Even if you insist on using the tuna sandwhich… it still has more issues than the god hypothesis, so I still don’t see the point, I guess.
I did state the problem with the God hypothesis directly; I said:
I gave the TSH as an example of ridiculous sounding creation theory that is actually more likely than the God hypothesis, within the space of unfalsifiable theories that the God hypothesis occupies.
To restate this: The God hypothesis is indistinguishable from a story that somebody just made up. For every case that boils down to “God did it”, we can create innumerable equivalent stories that claim “X did it”, for some value of X; with no way to select which story (if any) is correct.
Thanks for clarifying. I think we’re nearly on the same page in that we agree that both hypotheses are ridiculous. The only issue I see with TSH vs. god is that god has been defined as something that is outside time/space, omni-max, etc.
Does that mean anything about the plausibility of such a thing? No way.
But… it has been defined that way, whereas a tuna sandwich will always be confined to time and space. You could fix this by being the sole witness to a tuna sandwich bursting through a rip in space-time and informing you that it was outside time and space.
God, by the apologists’ definition, could actually be more plausible than the tuna sandwich you put together in your kitchen because the tuna sandwich is made of matter and go is defined as not. Matter seems only to exist in space-time and I see that as a strike against the TSH. It runs into objections re. the infinite regress and how it has existed long enough to create the universe from “outside” (or before or however you want to think about it) the universe when it’s made from perishable bread and fish-stuffs.
Does that make any more sense?
Actually, you may not be aware that mayonnaise is critical to universe creation. Since God does not contain mayonnaise the God hypothesis is less plausible than the TSH.
So you claim that existing outside space and time is necessary for the creation of the universe and I claim that mayonnaise is necessary. Do either of these claims allow us to select between the theories? I don’t see how; but by adding these additional requirements we increase the complexity of the theories and reduce their relative likelihood within the set of unfalsifiable theories.
Christian apologists can make compelling arguments because in the realm of made-up-stuff there is plenty that appeals to our cognitive biases. I agree that existing outside of space and time feels like a better property of a universe creator than containing mayonnaise; but that feeling is based from our very human perspective and not from any actual knowledge about how the universe came to be the way we see it now.
:)
Now that was what I needed. As soon as you started going there above with mayonnaise-as-necessity, I started wondering if perhaps I’m just intent on the “outside-time-and-space” requirement because that’s what I’ve always heard debated and argued.
And then you actually went there and all is clear.
Thanks!