I think I still disagree with your second point, but now for almost an opposite reason.
I think society needs delusional starving artists and entrepreneurs to get that one piece of transcendent art or world-changing company.
For instance, I think it’d be fair to describe early Apple as a collective, cult-like delusion or group pressure. We needed 100 of those that failed to get the one that succeeded. Similar to Van Gogh as a starving artist − 100 starving artists with unjustified belief in the power of their art produced the 1 Van Gogh.
I think society needs delusional starving artists and entrepreneurs to get that one piece of transcendent art or world-changing company.
I also agree with this! And my thought is that when you lose the artists and entrepreneurs who were in it for the glamour and the parties, you don’t lose much. What you keep are the artists and entrepreneurs who are obsessed with creating something valuable. Who are motivated by the work itself, who believe in it.
Apple may have been a “collective, cult-like delusion or group pressure,” but it’s not obvious to me that in-person camaraderie was the key to their success, as opposed to belief in the product.
I might just be a weirdo with a long history of solo work and remote collaborations/learning, and my model of what drives people might just be totally whack. Certainly, it’s limited to the types of experiences I’ve encountered in my life.
But having spent a fair amount of time in the art world, the art pieces I’ve seen that seem the most valuable are usually produced by work-focused, professionally-minded people. The genius stuff comes from pretty lonely people and the folks who enable them. It’s a need to create and realize an artistic vision, and a desire to help bring that into the world, that motivates the most necessary work I’ve seen.
I know a successful author who says he started writing because he noticed authors get more attention at cons. FWIW. (I’m pretty sure he gets something out of the work itself, and yet, this is the story he tells.)
Observing this discussion, your point seems to be that there are some people in the world who do things because they are fun rather than because they are worthwhile (IYO), and that the world as a whole would be better if these people were less able to have fun so that they would be more motivated to do worthwhile (IYO) things. Given this, I don’t suppose my anecdote actually changes anything about the main thrust of your argument, as you can just define the guy I know as outside of the class of people you’re talking about. I mean, the amount of time he spends writing is probably more than the amount of time he spends at cons. Maybe his hard work purifies his desire to have fun? Maybe he’s earned the right to have a little fun? Maybe he would have found some other reason to start writing if there were no cons?
And yet, I do sort of wonder if you’re constructing a meaningful class of people, these people who are seduced by parties and glamour but would otherwise be doing something more worthy (IYO)… I sort of wonder if you are yourself being seduced by a narrative about the lone genius and/or the intrinsic value of hard work, and maybe by that thing that Zvi recently talked about where things are considered more valuable because they are sacrifices. Sacrifice all your fun, and your work will be more valuable?
I also think it’s...really sweet, in a way, that you just assume that these people can find some way of contributing to the world that will both make them more money and be a more meaningful contribution to the world. Have you considered that maybe some of the people who you think could find something more valuable...maybe they don’t share your belief, maybe they resonate with the idea of “bullshit jobs” or “moral mazes” rather than whatever assumptions about jobs and value that you have, and that perhaps these people are taking their meaning, their value, and their idea of what their true work is where they can find it? And that the thing stopping them from doing the things you consider more valuable may run deeper than being seduced by parties?
And finally, perhaps consider that in art, there is not necessarily one measure of value. The piece that speaks to you may not speak to me. The piece that speaks to me may not speak to you. I assume you’ve also heard of the long tail? Something doesn’t have to change the world or even reach a large portion of the world in order to have any value at all, and if that small value is lost, if all those small bits of value are lost...
I suppose you might not miss it much if the people whose art you disdain were to stop making art altogether. At least at first. But as John Donne said, “Any man’s death diminishes me, Because I am involved in mankind.”
Perhaps you might consider art as an ecosystem, and the loss of any art potentially diminishes all art. So if you like any art at all (which I assume you do, otherwise I can’t imagine why you’d spend so much time in and around the arts)… “Therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.”
I’d add one more piece, which came out of my discussion with ryan_b above. In addition to losing positive social contact (camaraderie), we’re losing negative social contact (bullying, obnoxious people, etc).
Most people think that you need more than one positive interaction to “cancel out” a negative one. So even small reductions in negative social contact might make up for large losses in positive social contact.
So we’re losing:
Entire projects for which camaraderie is necessary for them to exist (which I posit is a sign that they may be relatively lacking in social value).
Aspects of social experience in projects that do survive, including both in-person bullying and obnoxiousness, along with camaraderie (which I posit isn’t too hard to imagine being neutral-to-positive on net).
You and others here are arguing that there exist jobs that are of great social value, but that also depend on camaraderie to get started or survive. Examples given here include startups and this author that you speak of. Surely there are others we could give. If we lose even one project of great social value, along with many unnecessary projects fueled by camaraderie alone, that might still be a net loss.
Perhaps you might consider art as an ecosystem, and the loss of any art potentially diminishes all art.
To broaden and take this literally, the loss of any X potentially diminishes all X. When an artist pursues their art rather than becoming a shoe salesman, the shoe industry is diminished. I guess, but who cares? On the level of the economy, everything is a tradeoff.
RE you’re “I also think it’s really… sweet” bit, I’d also say it’s kind of sweet that you assume that people who are pursuing the arts find it to be rewarding, or that the camaraderie that keeps these communities knit together is a pleasant experience. From what I’ve encountered, a lot of that “camaraderie” looks like FOMO, jealousy, inferiority complexes, extreme competition for scarce resources, and a sense of identity defined by victory in a zero-sum status competition, and to top it all off, it has to come with the pretense of liking others in the scene (and the scene itself).
I know this sounds mean, but I really am just trying to honestly explore the idea that maybe we depend a lot less on camaraderie than it seems, and perhaps we’re in general better off a lot more alone than we’ve been able to be in the past. Perhaps having more options to work remotely will enable people to be a lot more choosy about when and how they engage with others, leading to long-term much better relationships and communities than existed formerly.
I’d also say it’s kind of sweet that you assume that people who are pursuing the arts find it to be rewarding, or that the camaraderie that keeps these communities knit together is a pleasant experience.
Actually, that was an element that you introduced. “We don’t want people working a job primarily because it’s fun and they like their coworkers.” and “the occasional bright spots of camaraderie when they do manage to get some sort of project going”
But given your description of “a slowly-developing psychological exaggeration of how meaningful their ‘work’ is”, I guess I’m more inclined to give the people being described the benefit of the doubt than you are, which I admit is a bit cheeky considering that they’re not people I’ve ever met. Still, I think it’s worth at least considering the possibility that their values are not your values, and what you describe as exaggeration might be actual meaning to them.
Re: bullying, I’ve seen plenty of bullying over the internet, and some types of bullying are much more prevalent in online spaces. I don’t really see any argument for bullying going away when more things are virtual. And for obnoxious people, I wonder if they might be more obnoxious, based on virtual things being generally more awkward. Obnoxious and awkward might be worse than just obnoxious?
Re: artist vs. shoe salesperson, there is one difference that seems especially salient to their influence on their respective scenes. Artists are expected to bring their uniqueness to what they do, while most shoe salespeople are limited in how much they are allowed to do so. So the loss of an artist to the art world is more likely to be the loss of something unique than the loss of a shoe salesperson to the shoe world.
When you describe the arts by saying “Their community as a whole knows how to create a false sense of glamour that draws in artist and audience alike. Chasing this glamour is a big motivator for the whole enterprise.” and then go on to talk about “collective self-delusion that perpetuates deep deviations of work from social value, or even from genuine sustained happiness or achievement” and “a lot of that ‘camaraderie’ looks like FOMO, jealousy, inferiority complexes, extreme competition for scarce resources, and a sense of identity defined by victory in a zero-sum status competition, and to top it all off, it has to come with the pretense of liking others in the scene (and the scene itself)”
… sure, you’re examining the idea that being alone is better, but you also seem to have an axe to grind against the arts. I am not reacting against the idea that sometimes being alone is better. I’m reacting against the idea that the world would be better off without much of the arts, and that the arts are in some sense perpetuating a fraud against hopeful artists and audience alike—that they are just glamour and illusion—that any value is the exception, not the rule, and most claimed value is deception. I believe your argument relies on your own sense of what is valuable, and I do not believe that your sense of what is valuable captures all value.
On a different note, if you haven’t already seen it, you might find this interesting:
. What you keep are the artists and entrepreneurs who are obsessed with creating something valuable. Who are motivated by the work itself, who believe in it.
Ahh yeah, I think I have a broader view of the genesis of great works. I certainly think that there exists the “just be solitary and do great work” sort of thing.
But I also think there exists a thing where collective genius and the right “scene” can draw someone, then unlock their latent genius. Thinking of environments like the Chelsea Hotel, or an environment like early Bridgewater. People were drawn in because of the culture, which then instilled in them that sense of taste and love of the work itself.
Yeah, I’m sure there are both dynamics at play. People seek communities where they can work with others who share their mission, but they also develop their mission by participating in communities. “Come for the free pizza, stay for saving the world” or whatever :D
My prior is that there is a vastly bigger balance of people coming for the free pizza, then dissolving in low-key bitterness and anomie when the pizza runs out, so to speak :) Basically, I think there are a lot of people who’ve been “tricked by free pizza” into wasting an enormous amount of time and human potential, and that maybe we actually stand to unlock their human potential even more when that source of deception is taken away by circumstances.
I think I still disagree with your second point, but now for almost an opposite reason.
I think society needs delusional starving artists and entrepreneurs to get that one piece of transcendent art or world-changing company.
For instance, I think it’d be fair to describe early Apple as a collective, cult-like delusion or group pressure. We needed 100 of those that failed to get the one that succeeded. Similar to Van Gogh as a starving artist − 100 starving artists with unjustified belief in the power of their art produced the 1 Van Gogh.
I also agree with this! And my thought is that when you lose the artists and entrepreneurs who were in it for the glamour and the parties, you don’t lose much. What you keep are the artists and entrepreneurs who are obsessed with creating something valuable. Who are motivated by the work itself, who believe in it.
Apple may have been a “collective, cult-like delusion or group pressure,” but it’s not obvious to me that in-person camaraderie was the key to their success, as opposed to belief in the product.
I might just be a weirdo with a long history of solo work and remote collaborations/learning, and my model of what drives people might just be totally whack. Certainly, it’s limited to the types of experiences I’ve encountered in my life.
But having spent a fair amount of time in the art world, the art pieces I’ve seen that seem the most valuable are usually produced by work-focused, professionally-minded people. The genius stuff comes from pretty lonely people and the folks who enable them. It’s a need to create and realize an artistic vision, and a desire to help bring that into the world, that motivates the most necessary work I’ve seen.
I know a successful author who says he started writing because he noticed authors get more attention at cons. FWIW. (I’m pretty sure he gets something out of the work itself, and yet, this is the story he tells.)
Observing this discussion, your point seems to be that there are some people in the world who do things because they are fun rather than because they are worthwhile (IYO), and that the world as a whole would be better if these people were less able to have fun so that they would be more motivated to do worthwhile (IYO) things. Given this, I don’t suppose my anecdote actually changes anything about the main thrust of your argument, as you can just define the guy I know as outside of the class of people you’re talking about. I mean, the amount of time he spends writing is probably more than the amount of time he spends at cons. Maybe his hard work purifies his desire to have fun? Maybe he’s earned the right to have a little fun? Maybe he would have found some other reason to start writing if there were no cons?
And yet, I do sort of wonder if you’re constructing a meaningful class of people, these people who are seduced by parties and glamour but would otherwise be doing something more worthy (IYO)… I sort of wonder if you are yourself being seduced by a narrative about the lone genius and/or the intrinsic value of hard work, and maybe by that thing that Zvi recently talked about where things are considered more valuable because they are sacrifices. Sacrifice all your fun, and your work will be more valuable?
I also think it’s...really sweet, in a way, that you just assume that these people can find some way of contributing to the world that will both make them more money and be a more meaningful contribution to the world. Have you considered that maybe some of the people who you think could find something more valuable...maybe they don’t share your belief, maybe they resonate with the idea of “bullshit jobs” or “moral mazes” rather than whatever assumptions about jobs and value that you have, and that perhaps these people are taking their meaning, their value, and their idea of what their true work is where they can find it? And that the thing stopping them from doing the things you consider more valuable may run deeper than being seduced by parties?
And finally, perhaps consider that in art, there is not necessarily one measure of value. The piece that speaks to you may not speak to me. The piece that speaks to me may not speak to you. I assume you’ve also heard of the long tail? Something doesn’t have to change the world or even reach a large portion of the world in order to have any value at all, and if that small value is lost, if all those small bits of value are lost...
I suppose you might not miss it much if the people whose art you disdain were to stop making art altogether. At least at first. But as John Donne said, “Any man’s death diminishes me, Because I am involved in mankind.”
Perhaps you might consider art as an ecosystem, and the loss of any art potentially diminishes all art. So if you like any art at all (which I assume you do, otherwise I can’t imagine why you’d spend so much time in and around the arts)… “Therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.”
I’d add one more piece, which came out of my discussion with ryan_b above. In addition to losing positive social contact (camaraderie), we’re losing negative social contact (bullying, obnoxious people, etc).
Most people think that you need more than one positive interaction to “cancel out” a negative one. So even small reductions in negative social contact might make up for large losses in positive social contact.
So we’re losing:
Entire projects for which camaraderie is necessary for them to exist (which I posit is a sign that they may be relatively lacking in social value).
Aspects of social experience in projects that do survive, including both in-person bullying and obnoxiousness, along with camaraderie (which I posit isn’t too hard to imagine being neutral-to-positive on net).
You and others here are arguing that there exist jobs that are of great social value, but that also depend on camaraderie to get started or survive. Examples given here include startups and this author that you speak of. Surely there are others we could give. If we lose even one project of great social value, along with many unnecessary projects fueled by camaraderie alone, that might still be a net loss.
To broaden and take this literally, the loss of any X potentially diminishes all X. When an artist pursues their art rather than becoming a shoe salesman, the shoe industry is diminished. I guess, but who cares? On the level of the economy, everything is a tradeoff.
RE you’re “I also think it’s really… sweet” bit, I’d also say it’s kind of sweet that you assume that people who are pursuing the arts find it to be rewarding, or that the camaraderie that keeps these communities knit together is a pleasant experience. From what I’ve encountered, a lot of that “camaraderie” looks like FOMO, jealousy, inferiority complexes, extreme competition for scarce resources, and a sense of identity defined by victory in a zero-sum status competition, and to top it all off, it has to come with the pretense of liking others in the scene (and the scene itself).
I know this sounds mean, but I really am just trying to honestly explore the idea that maybe we depend a lot less on camaraderie than it seems, and perhaps we’re in general better off a lot more alone than we’ve been able to be in the past. Perhaps having more options to work remotely will enable people to be a lot more choosy about when and how they engage with others, leading to long-term much better relationships and communities than existed formerly.
Actually, that was an element that you introduced. “We don’t want people working a job primarily because it’s fun and they like their coworkers.” and “the occasional bright spots of camaraderie when they do manage to get some sort of project going”
But given your description of “a slowly-developing psychological exaggeration of how meaningful their ‘work’ is”, I guess I’m more inclined to give the people being described the benefit of the doubt than you are, which I admit is a bit cheeky considering that they’re not people I’ve ever met. Still, I think it’s worth at least considering the possibility that their values are not your values, and what you describe as exaggeration might be actual meaning to them.
Re: bullying, I’ve seen plenty of bullying over the internet, and some types of bullying are much more prevalent in online spaces. I don’t really see any argument for bullying going away when more things are virtual. And for obnoxious people, I wonder if they might be more obnoxious, based on virtual things being generally more awkward. Obnoxious and awkward might be worse than just obnoxious?
Re: artist vs. shoe salesperson, there is one difference that seems especially salient to their influence on their respective scenes. Artists are expected to bring their uniqueness to what they do, while most shoe salespeople are limited in how much they are allowed to do so. So the loss of an artist to the art world is more likely to be the loss of something unique than the loss of a shoe salesperson to the shoe world.
When you describe the arts by saying “Their community as a whole knows how to create a false sense of glamour that draws in artist and audience alike. Chasing this glamour is a big motivator for the whole enterprise.” and then go on to talk about “collective self-delusion that perpetuates deep deviations of work from social value, or even from genuine sustained happiness or achievement” and “a lot of that ‘camaraderie’ looks like FOMO, jealousy, inferiority complexes, extreme competition for scarce resources, and a sense of identity defined by victory in a zero-sum status competition, and to top it all off, it has to come with the pretense of liking others in the scene (and the scene itself)”
… sure, you’re examining the idea that being alone is better, but you also seem to have an axe to grind against the arts. I am not reacting against the idea that sometimes being alone is better. I’m reacting against the idea that the world would be better off without much of the arts, and that the arts are in some sense perpetuating a fraud against hopeful artists and audience alike—that they are just glamour and illusion—that any value is the exception, not the rule, and most claimed value is deception. I believe your argument relies on your own sense of what is valuable, and I do not believe that your sense of what is valuable captures all value.
On a different note, if you haven’t already seen it, you might find this interesting:
https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2015/05/20/pretending-to-care-pretending-to-agree/
Ahh yeah, I think I have a broader view of the genesis of great works. I certainly think that there exists the “just be solitary and do great work” sort of thing.
But I also think there exists a thing where collective genius and the right “scene” can draw someone, then unlock their latent genius. Thinking of environments like the Chelsea Hotel, or an environment like early Bridgewater. People were drawn in because of the culture, which then instilled in them that sense of taste and love of the work itself.
Yeah, I’m sure there are both dynamics at play. People seek communities where they can work with others who share their mission, but they also develop their mission by participating in communities. “Come for the free pizza, stay for saving the world” or whatever :D
My prior is that there is a vastly bigger balance of people coming for the free pizza, then dissolving in low-key bitterness and anomie when the pizza runs out, so to speak :) Basically, I think there are a lot of people who’ve been “tricked by free pizza” into wasting an enormous amount of time and human potential, and that maybe we actually stand to unlock their human potential even more when that source of deception is taken away by circumstances.