Maybe explicit rules against blocking users from “norm-setting” posts.
On blocking users from commenting
I still endorse authors being able to block other users (whether for principles reasons, or just “this user is annoying”). I think a) it’s actually really important for authors for the site to be fun to use, b) there’s a lot of users who are dealbreakingly annoying to some people but not others. Banning them from the whole site would be overkill. c) authors aren’t obligated to lend their own karma/reputation to give space to other people’s content. If an author doesn’t want your comments on his post, whether for defensible reasons or not, I think it’s an okay answer that those commenters make their own post or shortform arguing the point elsewhere.
Yes, there are some trivial inconveniences to posting that criticism. I do track that in the cost. But I think that is outweighed by the effect on authors being motivated to post.
That all said...
Blocking users on “norm-setting posts”
I think it’s more worrisome to block users on posts that are making major momentum towards changing site norms/culture. I don’t think the censorship effects are that strong or distorting in most cases, but I’m most worried about censorship effects being distorting in cases that affect ongoing norms about what people can say.
There’s a blurry line here, between posts that are putting forth new social concepts, and posts advocating for applying those concepts towards norms (either in the OP or in the comments), and a further blurry line between that and posts which arguing about applying that to specific people. i.e. I’d have an ascending wariness of:
I think it was already a little sketchy that Basics of Rationalist Discourse went out of it’s way to call itself “The Basics” rather than “Duncan’s preferred norms” (a somewhat frame-control-y move IMO although not necessarily unreasonably so), while also blocking Zack at the time. It feels even more sketchy to me to write Killing Socrates, which AFAICT a thinly veiled “build-social-momentum-against-Said-in-particular”, where Said can’t respond (and it’s disproportionately likely that Said’s allies also can’t respond)
Right now we don’t have tech to unblock users from a specific post, who have been banned from all of a user’s posts. But this recent set of events has me learning towards “build tech to do that”, and then make it a rule that post over at the threshold of “Basics” or higher (in terms of site-norm-momentum-building), need to allow everyone to comment.
I do expect that to make it less rewarding to make that sort of post. And, well, to (almost) quote Duncan:
Put another way: a frequent refrain is “well, if I have to put forth that much effort, I’ll never say anything at all,” to which the response is often [“sorry I acknowledge the cost here but I think that’s an okay tradeoff”]
Okay but what do I do about Said when he shows up doing his whole pattern of subtly-missing/and/or/reframing-the-point-while-sprawling massive threads, in an impo
My answer is “strong downvote him, announce you’re not going to engage, maybe link to a place where you went into more detail about why if this comes up a lot, and move on with your day.” (I do generally wish Duncan did more of this and less trying to set-the-record straight in ways that escalate in IMO very costly ways)
maybe link to a place where you went into more detail about why if this comes up a lot, and move on with your day.
This is exactly why I wrote Here’s Why I’m Hesitant To Respond In More Depth. The purpose wasn’t just to explain myself to somebody specific. It was to give myself an alternative resource when I received a specific time of common feedback that was giving me negative vibes. Instead of my usual behaviors (get in an argument, ignore and feel bad, downvote without explanation, or whatever), I could link to this post, which conveyed more detail, warmth and charity than I would be able to muster reliably or in the moment. I advocate that others should write their own versions tailored to their particular sensitivities, and I think it would be a step toward a healthier site culture.
I note for context/as a bit of explanation that Zack was blocked because of having shot from the hip with “This is insane” on what was literally a previous partial draft of that very post (made public by accident); I didn’t want a repeat of a specific sort of interaction I had specific reason to fear.
Maybe explicit rules against blocking users from “norm-setting” posts.
On blocking users from commenting
I still endorse authors being able to block other users (whether for principles reasons, or just “this user is annoying”). I think a) it’s actually really important for authors for the site to be fun to use, b) there’s a lot of users who are dealbreakingly annoying to some people but not others. Banning them from the whole site would be overkill. c) authors aren’t obligated to lend their own karma/reputation to give space to other people’s content. If an author doesn’t want your comments on his post, whether for defensible reasons or not, I think it’s an okay answer that those commenters make their own post or shortform arguing the point elsewhere.
Yes, there are some trivial inconveniences to posting that criticism. I do track that in the cost. But I think that is outweighed by the effect on authors being motivated to post.
That all said...
Blocking users on “norm-setting posts”
I think it’s more worrisome to block users on posts that are making major momentum towards changing site norms/culture. I don’t think the censorship effects are that strong or distorting in most cases, but I’m most worried about censorship effects being distorting in cases that affect ongoing norms about what people can say.
There’s a blurry line here, between posts that are putting forth new social concepts, and posts advocating for applying those concepts towards norms (either in the OP or in the comments), and a further blurry line between that and posts which arguing about applying that to specific people. i.e. I’d have an ascending wariness of:
Concentration of Force
Basics of Rationalist Discourse or Speaking of Stag Hunts
Killing Socrates
I think it was already a little sketchy that Basics of Rationalist Discourse went out of it’s way to call itself “The Basics” rather than “Duncan’s preferred norms” (a somewhat frame-control-y move IMO although not necessarily unreasonably so), while also blocking Zack at the time. It feels even more sketchy to me to write Killing Socrates, which AFAICT a thinly veiled “build-social-momentum-against-Said-in-particular”, where Said can’t respond (and it’s disproportionately likely that Said’s allies also can’t respond)
Right now we don’t have tech to unblock users from a specific post, who have been banned from all of a user’s posts. But this recent set of events has me learning towards “build tech to do that”, and then make it a rule that post over at the threshold of “Basics” or higher (in terms of site-norm-momentum-building), need to allow everyone to comment.
I do expect that to make it less rewarding to make that sort of post. And, well, to (almost) quote Duncan:
Okay but what do I do about Said when he shows up doing his whole pattern of subtly-missing/and/or/reframing-the-point-while-sprawling massive threads, in an impo
My answer is “strong downvote him, announce you’re not going to engage, maybe link to a place where you went into more detail about why if this comes up a lot, and move on with your day.” (I do generally wish Duncan did more of this and less trying to set-the-record straight in ways that escalate in IMO very costly ways)
(I also kinda wish gjm had also done this towards the beginning of the thread on LW Team is adjusting moderation policy)
This is exactly why I wrote Here’s Why I’m Hesitant To Respond In More Depth. The purpose wasn’t just to explain myself to somebody specific. It was to give myself an alternative resource when I received a specific time of common feedback that was giving me negative vibes. Instead of my usual behaviors (get in an argument, ignore and feel bad, downvote without explanation, or whatever), I could link to this post, which conveyed more detail, warmth and charity than I would be able to muster reliably or in the moment. I advocate that others should write their own versions tailored to their particular sensitivities, and I think it would be a step toward a healthier site culture.
“I do generally wish Duncan did more of this and less trying to set-the-record straight in ways that escalate in IMO very costly ways”
strongly agree.
I note for context/as a bit of explanation that Zack was blocked because of having shot from the hip with “This is insane” on what was literally a previous partial draft of that very post (made public by accident); I didn’t want a repeat of a specific sort of interaction I had specific reason to fear.