We were here first. This is our garden, too—or it was. Why is the mod team persecuting us? By what right—by what code—by what standard?
I endorse much of Oliver’s replies, and I’m mostly burnt out from this convo at the moment so can’t do the followthrough here I’d ideally like. But, it seemed important to publicly state some thoughts here before the moment passed:
Yes, the bar for banning or permanently limiting the speech of a longterm member in Said’s reference class is very high, and I’d treat it very differently from moderating a troll, crank, or confused newcomer. But to say you can never do such moderation proves too much – that longterm users can never have enough negative effects to warrant taking permanent action on. My model of Eliezer-2009 believed and intended something similar in Well Kept Gardens.
I don’t think the Spirit of LessWrong 2009 actually supports you on the specific claims you’re making here.
As for “by what right do we moderate?” Well, LessWrong had died, no one was owning it, people spontaneously elected Vaniver as leader, Vaniver delegated to habrkya who founded the LessWrong team and got Eliezer’s buy-in, and now we have 6 years of track of record that I think most people agree is much better than nobody in charge.
But, honestly, I don’t actually think you really believe these meta-level arguments (or, at least won’t upon reflection and maybe a week of distance). I think you disagree with our object level call on Said, and on the overall moderation philosophy that led to it. And, like, I do think there’s a lot to legitimately argue over with the object level call on Said and overall moderation philosophy surrounding it. I’m fairly burnt out from taking about this in the immediate future but fwiw I welcome top-level posts arguing about this and expect to engage with them in the future.
And if you decide to quit LessWrong in protest, well, I will be sad about that. I think your writing and generator are quite valuable. I do think there’s an important spirit of early LessWrong that you keep alive, and I’ve made important updates due to your contributions. But, also, man it doesn’t look like your relationship with the site is necessarily that healthy for you.
...
I think a lot of what you’re upset about is an overall sense that your home doesn’t feel like you’re home anymore. I do think there is a legitimately sad thing worth grieving there.
But I think old LessWrong did, actually, die. And, if it hadn’t, well, it’s been 12 years and the world has changed. I think it wouldn’t make sense, by the Spirit of 2009 LessWrong’s lights, to stay exactly the way you remember it. I think some of this is due to specific philosophies the LessWrong 2.0 team brings (I think our original stated goal of “cause intellectual progress to happen faster/better” is very related to and driven by the original sequences, but I think our frame is subtly different). But meanwhile a lot of it is just about the world changing, and Eliezer moving on in some ways (early LessWrong’s spirit was AFAICT largely driven by Eliezer posting frequently, while braindumping a specific set of ideas he had to share. That process is now over and any subsequent process was going to be different somehow)
I don’t know that I really have a useful takeaway. Sometimes there isn’t one. But insofar as you think it is healthy for you to stay on LessWrong and you don’t want to quit in protest of the mod call on Said, fwiw I continue to welcome posts arguing for what you think the spirit of lesswrong should be, and/or where you think the mod team is fucking up.
(As previously stated, I’m fairly burnt out atm, but would be happy to talk more about this sometime in the future if it seemed helpful)
I endorse much of Oliver’s replies, and I’m mostly burnt out from this convo at the moment so can’t do the followthrough here I’d ideally like. But, it seemed important to publicly state some thoughts here before the moment passed:
Yes, the bar for banning or permanently limiting the speech of a longterm member in Said’s reference class is very high, and I’d treat it very differently from moderating a troll, crank, or confused newcomer. But to say you can never do such moderation proves too much – that longterm users can never have enough negative effects to warrant taking permanent action on. My model of Eliezer-2009 believed and intended something similar in Well Kept Gardens.
I don’t think the Spirit of LessWrong 2009 actually supports you on the specific claims you’re making here.
As for “by what right do we moderate?” Well, LessWrong had died, no one was owning it, people spontaneously elected Vaniver as leader, Vaniver delegated to habrkya who founded the LessWrong team and got Eliezer’s buy-in, and now we have 6 years of track of record that I think most people agree is much better than nobody in charge.
But, honestly, I don’t actually think you really believe these meta-level arguments (or, at least won’t upon reflection and maybe a week of distance). I think you disagree with our object level call on Said, and on the overall moderation philosophy that led to it. And, like, I do think there’s a lot to legitimately argue over with the object level call on Said and overall moderation philosophy surrounding it. I’m fairly burnt out from taking about this in the immediate future but fwiw I welcome top-level posts arguing about this and expect to engage with them in the future.
And if you decide to quit LessWrong in protest, well, I will be sad about that. I think your writing and generator are quite valuable. I do think there’s an important spirit of early LessWrong that you keep alive, and I’ve made important updates due to your contributions. But, also, man it doesn’t look like your relationship with the site is necessarily that healthy for you.
...
I think a lot of what you’re upset about is an overall sense that your home doesn’t feel like you’re home anymore. I do think there is a legitimately sad thing worth grieving there.
But I think old LessWrong did, actually, die. And, if it hadn’t, well, it’s been 12 years and the world has changed. I think it wouldn’t make sense, by the Spirit of 2009 LessWrong’s lights, to stay exactly the way you remember it. I think some of this is due to specific philosophies the LessWrong 2.0 team brings (I think our original stated goal of “cause intellectual progress to happen faster/better” is very related to and driven by the original sequences, but I think our frame is subtly different). But meanwhile a lot of it is just about the world changing, and Eliezer moving on in some ways (early LessWrong’s spirit was AFAICT largely driven by Eliezer posting frequently, while braindumping a specific set of ideas he had to share. That process is now over and any subsequent process was going to be different somehow)
I don’t know that I really have a useful takeaway. Sometimes there isn’t one. But insofar as you think it is healthy for you to stay on LessWrong and you don’t want to quit in protest of the mod call on Said, fwiw I continue to welcome posts arguing for what you think the spirit of lesswrong should be, and/or where you think the mod team is fucking up.
(As previously stated, I’m fairly burnt out atm, but would be happy to talk more about this sometime in the future if it seemed helpful)