When I vote, I get the moral right to complain about other peoples’ votes, and therefore to complain about the actions of the government these votes elect.
That right is worth the 20 min I need to spend to go vote, even without any consideration of the consequences of voting collectively.
I’m talking about the moral right, not the legal right. If you don’t believe in the concept of moral rights, that’s okay, but it was what I was referring to.
When I vote, I get the moral right to complain about other peoples’ votes, and therefore to complain about the actions of the government these votes elect.
That right is worth the 20 min I need to spend to go vote, even without any consideration of the consequences of voting collectively.
How remarkable, a 20 minute ritual can confer on me new moral rights, I feel like being a Catholic all over again! But let us now discuss how many angels can dance on that particular pin.
Do people who aren’t allowed to vote allowed to complain? Like children, teenagers and convicts? Also illegal immigrants and foreigners who live legally in the country but don’t have citizenship?
Do I still get to complain about judicial decisions that aren’t influenced by votes? Do I get to complain about old laws? Do I have the moral right to complain if I’m wronged, say my human rights violated?
If the personal is the political as some claim, have I lost all right to moral judgement because I’m a non-voter? Us non-voters if you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge?
Also I should remind you that unfortunately (since I want to get rid of all politics), deciding not to vote is a political act as well. By not voting I show I do not think this whole democracy thing is a legitimate regime, I will obey its laws for I am small and the state is big. I am the regime’s subject of this there is no doubt, but I have no wish, and there is of yet no law, to force me to play in the mummer’s farce of citizenship.
I am genuinely interested to know what your preferred alternative to politics is. Don’t get me wrong, I have a couple of preferred alternatives myself. I want to see how closely our alternatives match.
Futarchy for starters. Neocameralism proposed by Mencius Moldbug might work better but is risky. City state oligarchies. Anarchy-Capitalism if you can get it. A Republic with limited franchise if you can keep it. A properly set up monarchy. Even democratic technocracy, where democratic element would have about as much role in governance as the Monarchy part does in the Constitutional Monarchy of the United Kingdom. Arguably we are nearly there anyway.
How remarkable, a 20 minute ritual can confer on me new moral rights,
You find such a thing strange? When I buy a coffee, the ritual of giving the coffee-shop owner a coin of specific worth confers on me the moral right to drink the coffee I just bought.
Do people who aren’t allowed to vote allowed to complain?
Yes.
Do I still get to complain about judicial decisions that aren’t influenced by votes?
Yes.
Do I get to complain about laws?
Only if you choose to vote against the laws you complain about, when given said chance.
You find such a thing strange? When I buy a coffee, the ritual of giving the coffee-shop owner a coin of specific worth confers on me the moral right to drink the coffee I just bought.
I don’t recall buying a cup of democracy. I don’t recall agreeing to this system of government at all, and darn it I can’t seem to find a party that wants to abolish it either.
The thing I was suggesting you were buying with your vote was the “moral right to complain”, not democracy. Democracy in this case is the established coffee-shop. You pay with your vote (or other attempts to influence the political outcome), you get the moral right to complain about the collective idiocy of others.
“I don’t recall agreeing to this system of government at all”
I don’t think that any of your preferred forms of government require many people’s “agreement”. And most of those would probably deprive you of the legal right to complain as well. (you would have already lost the moral right to complain by helping depriving the legal right to complain from others)
If you really really want the right to complain (whether legal or moral), it’s unlikely you’ll find a system more suited for it than democracy.
You pay with your vote (or other attempts to influence the political outcome), you get the moral right to complain about the collective idiocy of others.
I disagree. I’m having trouble understanding it, could you perhaps just stay away from metaphors and explain your moral reasoning here?
(you would have already lost the moral right to complain by helping depriving the legal right to complain from others)
First off I’m not sure which process you are using to make this moral judgement, so I’m unsure whether I grant your moral reasoning any weight or not. Secondly can you please make this for the sake of the debate a bit less personal? Considering the spirit of generosity we usually see on LW I’m quite shocked to see statements like this. You really won’t be changing minds with this, least of all mine. I find if funny that fewer unfavourable things where said about my morality when I was arguing in favour of infanticide in a different thread… Voting is probably sacred to some people.
Regardless, If you check out my comment history I’ve strongly favoured freedom of speech and freedom of conscience in nearly every discussion I’ve had. Doesn’t that buy me something in your moral system too?
If you really really want the right to complain (whether legal or moral), it’s unlikely you’ll find a system more suited for it than democracy.
I disagree here. Futarchy would provide at least as much and Neocameralism should in theory provide more freedom of speech than I currently have.
I’ll grant this, though I don’t know how existing rules about insider trading would conflict with beliefs about society itself becoming officially the object of trade and profit.
and Neocameralism should in theory provide more freedom of speech than I currently have.
If I understand Moldbug’s neocameralism, it would give the government the perfect right to behead you if it doesn’t like your taste in shoes—because in Moldbug’s view there’s no difference between the right to do something and the power to do something. And Moldbug advocates in favour the government having complete and total power over all its subjects.
He just argues that the government won’t bother exercising such power because it wouldn’t be profitable for them to do so. But unfortunately Moldbug’s view that a government totally in control wouldn’t bother to control people’s thoughts goes in contrast with pretty much everything we know about history. He arrives at a purely “logical” conclusion which just isn’t backed up by historical experience.
Not that I wouldn’t love cities that would be individually run as corporations—e.g. this . It’s the Neocameralist vision of them having absolute power of life and death over their subjects that scares the hell out of me.
I note that Moldbug’s example of Singapore as a well-run state which is run on non-Universalist and non-Democratic principles was hilariously backed by a Singapore resident’s letter which was so terrified of being seen to criticize Singapore, that even in his mostly-praiseful letter he felt he had to use the name “Narnia” instead of the name “Singapore”. Such freedom of speech in a well-run authoritarian state...
I’m having trouble understanding it, could you perhaps just stay away from metaphors and explain your moral reasoning here?
Okay,
“complaining about a person’s vote” can mean two things: Either that I believe “they should have voted differently” or that I believe “they should not have voted at all.”.
Therefore to have the moral right to honestly complain about their vote, I must either believe “everyone should have voted differently” or I must believe “everyone should not have voted at all.”
Since I don’t believe society would be better if nobody voted, then the only option I have if I want this moral right to complain is “they should have voted differently”.
And therefore it would be hypocrisy if I likewise hadn’t myself gone to vote differently.
Now, the thing you’re not getting is that I’m not really judging you. My first comment was about how it bought me the moral right to complain. Someone who really thinks the world would be better if nobody voted is exempt from this particular line of reasoning. Because as you said, non-voting can be a political act too.
When I vote, I have registered approval of one faction of politicians and have arguably lost my right to complain about the policies they go ahead and enact. (If they lose, I should not complain either, and I should humbly submit to the outcome of the democratic process.)
Good thing the idea of “rights” is mostly incoherent anyway.
You probably have indeed lost the right to complain about that particular faction of politicians you voted for, if they acted according to how you can reasonably have predicted them to act. (e.g. in my own homeland I don’t think anyone who voted for the Neonazi party has the right to complain about them when they predictably started murdering immigrants)
If a psychopath says “tell me which of your kids you want me to shoot, or I shoot them all anyway”, you don’t become an accessory to murder by answering him, because everybody recognizes that you were under duress and just trying to reduce the damage.
If you are faced with a choice of “tell us which jerk gets to order everyone around, or we’ll pick someone anyway without your input”, then attempting to pick the lesser evil also does not make you culpable of anything, for similar reasons.
(If it was possible to send a “protest” message by not voting, things might be more complicated, but in practice any such protest signal would be undiscernable from apathy and cynicism noise)
When I vote, I have registered approval of one faction of politicians and have arguably lost my right to complain about the policies they go ahead and enact.
I’m confused, what if I register my approval or disapproval by protesting, distributing leaflets, making petitions to various courts or writing angry blog posts? Surely I’ve made more impact on politics by engaging in propaganda, activism and legal action than if I merely voted. Perhaps I can even get a job as a government advisor and thus directly register my approval or disapproval to the politicians themselves. Why is voting magic?
(If they lose, I should not complain either, and I should humbly submit to the outcome of the democratic process.)
Why? May I remind you who can win elections in a democracy…
Good thing the idea of “rights” is mostly incoherent anyway.
On this we agree, but I wonder why you then made your argument in that language?
When I vote, I get the moral right to complain about other peoples’ votes, and therefore to complain about the actions of the government these votes elect.
I see complaining as a basic human right. Saying that people who don’t vote shouldn’t complain is an effort to eliminate a major source of feedback about how a society is going.
Saying that people who don’t vote shouldn’t complain (or possibly shouldn’t be listened to by voters) seems to me like a claim that was trumped up to get people to vote. Voting makes relatively little difference. How about “people who don’t vote in primaries shouldn’t complain”? People who don’t research their votes shouldn’t complain? People who don’t take an active part in politics by researching and then trying to influence other people shouldn’t complain?
When I vote, I get the moral right to complain about other peoples’ votes, and therefore to complain about the actions of the government these votes elect.
That right is worth the 20 min I need to spend to go vote, even without any consideration of the consequences of voting collectively.
In my country, we have the right to complain about anything we want, regardless of voting.
In my country, you’re eyed with suspicion if you don’t complain.
I’m talking about the moral right, not the legal right. If you don’t believe in the concept of moral rights, that’s okay, but it was what I was referring to.
How remarkable, a 20 minute ritual can confer on me new moral rights, I feel like being a Catholic all over again! But let us now discuss how many angels can dance on that particular pin.
Do people who aren’t allowed to vote allowed to complain? Like children, teenagers and convicts? Also illegal immigrants and foreigners who live legally in the country but don’t have citizenship?
Do I still get to complain about judicial decisions that aren’t influenced by votes? Do I get to complain about old laws? Do I have the moral right to complain if I’m wronged, say my human rights violated?
If the personal is the political as some claim, have I lost all right to moral judgement because I’m a non-voter? Us non-voters if you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge?
Also I should remind you that unfortunately (since I want to get rid of all politics), deciding not to vote is a political act as well. By not voting I show I do not think this whole democracy thing is a legitimate regime, I will obey its laws for I am small and the state is big. I am the regime’s subject of this there is no doubt, but I have no wish, and there is of yet no law, to force me to play in the mummer’s farce of citizenship.
I am genuinely interested to know what your preferred alternative to politics is. Don’t get me wrong, I have a couple of preferred alternatives myself. I want to see how closely our alternatives match.
Futarchy for starters. Neocameralism proposed by Mencius Moldbug might work better but is risky. City state oligarchies. Anarchy-Capitalism if you can get it. A Republic with limited franchise if you can keep it. A properly set up monarchy. Even democratic technocracy, where democratic element would have about as much role in governance as the Monarchy part does in the Constitutional Monarchy of the United Kingdom. Arguably we are nearly there anyway.
Which surprisingly does not mean “the rule by women with male genitalia”.
Nor rule by fútbol.
You find such a thing strange? When I buy a coffee, the ritual of giving the coffee-shop owner a coin of specific worth confers on me the moral right to drink the coffee I just bought.
Yes.
Yes.
Only if you choose to vote against the laws you complain about, when given said chance.
I don’t recall buying a cup of democracy. I don’t recall agreeing to this system of government at all, and darn it I can’t seem to find a party that wants to abolish it either.
The thing I was suggesting you were buying with your vote was the “moral right to complain”, not democracy. Democracy in this case is the established coffee-shop. You pay with your vote (or other attempts to influence the political outcome), you get the moral right to complain about the collective idiocy of others.
I don’t think that any of your preferred forms of government require many people’s “agreement”. And most of those would probably deprive you of the legal right to complain as well. (you would have already lost the moral right to complain by helping depriving the legal right to complain from others)
If you really really want the right to complain (whether legal or moral), it’s unlikely you’ll find a system more suited for it than democracy.
I disagree. I’m having trouble understanding it, could you perhaps just stay away from metaphors and explain your moral reasoning here?
First off I’m not sure which process you are using to make this moral judgement, so I’m unsure whether I grant your moral reasoning any weight or not. Secondly can you please make this for the sake of the debate a bit less personal? Considering the spirit of generosity we usually see on LW I’m quite shocked to see statements like this. You really won’t be changing minds with this, least of all mine. I find if funny that fewer unfavourable things where said about my morality when I was arguing in favour of infanticide in a different thread… Voting is probably sacred to some people.
Regardless, If you check out my comment history I’ve strongly favoured freedom of speech and freedom of conscience in nearly every discussion I’ve had. Doesn’t that buy me something in your moral system too?
I disagree here. Futarchy would provide at least as much and Neocameralism should in theory provide more freedom of speech than I currently have.
I’ll grant this, though I don’t know how existing rules about insider trading would conflict with beliefs about society itself becoming officially the object of trade and profit.
If I understand Moldbug’s neocameralism, it would give the government the perfect right to behead you if it doesn’t like your taste in shoes—because in Moldbug’s view there’s no difference between the right to do something and the power to do something. And Moldbug advocates in favour the government having complete and total power over all its subjects.
He just argues that the government won’t bother exercising such power because it wouldn’t be profitable for them to do so. But unfortunately Moldbug’s view that a government totally in control wouldn’t bother to control people’s thoughts goes in contrast with pretty much everything we know about history. He arrives at a purely “logical” conclusion which just isn’t backed up by historical experience.
Not that I wouldn’t love cities that would be individually run as corporations—e.g. this . It’s the Neocameralist vision of them having absolute power of life and death over their subjects that scares the hell out of me.
I note that Moldbug’s example of Singapore as a well-run state which is run on non-Universalist and non-Democratic principles was hilariously backed by a Singapore resident’s letter which was so terrified of being seen to criticize Singapore, that even in his mostly-praiseful letter he felt he had to use the name “Narnia” instead of the name “Singapore”. Such freedom of speech in a well-run authoritarian state...
Okay,
“complaining about a person’s vote” can mean two things: Either that I believe “they should have voted differently” or that I believe “they should not have voted at all.”.
Therefore to have the moral right to honestly complain about their vote, I must either believe “everyone should have voted differently” or I must believe “everyone should not have voted at all.”
Since I don’t believe society would be better if nobody voted, then the only option I have if I want this moral right to complain is “they should have voted differently”.
And therefore it would be hypocrisy if I likewise hadn’t myself gone to vote differently.
Now, the thing you’re not getting is that I’m not really judging you. My first comment was about how it bought me the moral right to complain. Someone who really thinks the world would be better if nobody voted is exempt from this particular line of reasoning. Because as you said, non-voting can be a political act too.
Up voted for corresponding to my request for elaborating your argument.
Edit: Is it wrong to reward people elaborating their argument?
Since we just agreed rights are mostly incoherent, can you please restate the argument for voting without reference to them?
You’re confusing me with Athrelon.
Ah my apologies.
No, you only show that you can’t be bothered to spend 20 minutes to vote. Otherwise you would vote and spoil the ballot.
I kind of consider that the same as non-voting, but yeah I’ve done that too when I accompanied others on their way to voting.
Downvoted for unnecessary levels of disdain.
I don’t think so, I was responding to an argument free asserting that basically called my behaviour immoral.
The argument asserts that my behavior is immoral as well, and yet somehow I managed to restrain myself from caustic, unhelpful language.
Rituals that confer new moral rights? That’s Catholic!
When I vote, I have registered approval of one faction of politicians and have arguably lost my right to complain about the policies they go ahead and enact. (If they lose, I should not complain either, and I should humbly submit to the outcome of the democratic process.)
Good thing the idea of “rights” is mostly incoherent anyway.
You probably have indeed lost the right to complain about that particular faction of politicians you voted for, if they acted according to how you can reasonably have predicted them to act. (e.g. in my own homeland I don’t think anyone who voted for the Neonazi party has the right to complain about them when they predictably started murdering immigrants)
You should factor in that uncertainty before voting! Consequentialism, dude.
I think people have a right to find out that they were wrong, and say so.
If a psychopath says “tell me which of your kids you want me to shoot, or I shoot them all anyway”, you don’t become an accessory to murder by answering him, because everybody recognizes that you were under duress and just trying to reduce the damage.
If you are faced with a choice of “tell us which jerk gets to order everyone around, or we’ll pick someone anyway without your input”, then attempting to pick the lesser evil also does not make you culpable of anything, for similar reasons.
(If it was possible to send a “protest” message by not voting, things might be more complicated, but in practice any such protest signal would be undiscernable from apathy and cynicism noise)
I’m confused, what if I register my approval or disapproval by protesting, distributing leaflets, making petitions to various courts or writing angry blog posts? Surely I’ve made more impact on politics by engaging in propaganda, activism and legal action than if I merely voted. Perhaps I can even get a job as a government advisor and thus directly register my approval or disapproval to the politicians themselves. Why is voting magic?
Why? May I remind you who can win elections in a democracy…
On this we agree, but I wonder why you then made your argument in that language?
I see complaining as a basic human right. Saying that people who don’t vote shouldn’t complain is an effort to eliminate a major source of feedback about how a society is going.
Saying that people who don’t vote shouldn’t complain (or possibly shouldn’t be listened to by voters) seems to me like a claim that was trumped up to get people to vote. Voting makes relatively little difference. How about “people who don’t vote in primaries shouldn’t complain”? People who don’t research their votes shouldn’t complain? People who don’t take an active part in politics by researching and then trying to influence other people shouldn’t complain?