Practicing in dreams and other altered states is like practicing with a self-imposed handicap. Just as a tennis player might practice under conditions and self-imposed constraints so severe that they would never come up in a real game, a rationalist might seek to hone their skills in unrealistically harsh environments.
If one could notice and counteract cognitive biases, accurately assess priors and calculate probabilities, etc. -- all while dreaming, drunk, tripping on LSD, sick with a 104 F fever, etc. (not that I’m recommending all those) -- then those skills would have become second nature and effortless in less severe environments. Just as a tennis player who practices playing 7-set matches at heat-wave temperatures against multiple practice partners is much better prepared to play a 5-set match at a less severe temperature against a single player.
Heh anonym, it happens to be the case that I myself attempted to do so after ingesting psilocybin. I think I did admirably… (though I’m not actually a full bayesian [or even a frequentist] about my rationality, working on it...). THC or alcohol seems all about mustering up the strength to do it, which I often fail to do. Of course, I’m thinking that now that I’ve been there done that, to be safe I won’t do it much more in my life.
It’s an interesting experience, and I would say that it is of at least some interest to the rationalist, given that I don’t think it has shown to have negative effects on the brain or anything like that. A while back, some people in this community were pondering whether it “altered the personality forever” which I haven’t seen be the case for any of my companions, so unless that came from scientific studies rather than anecdote I think that isn’t a concern of the rationalist either.
I have some audio tapes of the conversations we had during it, but I haven’t listened to them yet. I need to because my perception of what happened is probably a bit off from what actually happened. My companions put pretty much all their trust in me during the trip because I seemed to be making the best decisions (even though I was the n00b in the group). I never lost the knowledge that I was on a drug, though I hear that happens, and that would be quite a challenge to the rationalist indeed!
One interesting thing was that we would have to plan to do things several times. A lot of conversations had to happen over and over again because whenever you change your relationship with other objects in the room it can be so distracting that you forget what your goal was. Super Akrasia to the tenth. I guess similar things happen with THC, but I don’t think it’s for the same reasons.
Another interesting thing is that the idea of play-acting seemed to be really potent. Having been named rational, the impulse to merely ACT rational (rather than be rational) was nigh-overwhelming. In-group feelings were really strong, my companions had WAY more xenophobia than I experienced (I could remember how little people tend to care about what other people are doing, whereas my friends seemed to think every person was a secret police officer or something). I never hallucinated anything… but it is interesting to operate with a general skepticism of everything you think or see.
Different levels of the drug will cause widely different things. I was doing about the average dose. My friends were probably at a place where I’m not sure rationality was possible… that can happen and it’s interesting to think about (I never want to be there though).
A while back, some people in this community were pondering whether it “altered the personality forever” which I haven’t seen be the case for any of my companions, so unless that came from scientific studies rather than anecdote I think that isn’t a concern of the rationalist either.
Studies I have seen reported a positive and long term alteration of mood.
Indeed they do. However the dose they use in the psilocybin research equates to a much greater dose of mushrooms than the “average”(I’ll assume 3.5 grams of dry P. cubensis) dose goldfishlaser speaks of.
The whole point with psychedelic drugs is that one must take a high, overwhelming dose in order to experience the full gamut of experiential states possible.
I have an excellent cognitive psychology book published by OUP called The Antipodes of the Mind:
The book takes an empirical, phenomenological approach. The author has gathered data from around 2,500 experiences with the plant based tea Ayahuasca(in effects it is rather like mushrooms yet typically stronger). He himself has taken the brew well over 100 times. This data is then analyzed in various ways: semantic content of visions, progression and stages of the experience, structural topology of visions, and so on. Please take a moment to browse the table of contents in the amazon online book preview to get a feel for both the academic seriousness of this book as well as the quite fascinating contents. Best of all, the author, Benny Shanon, includes numerical tables and a whole appendix devoted to explaining his research methodology.
Actually, dart players who normally play/practice drunk perform better when intoxicated than sober. It won’t help your game if you normally play sober to start playing drunk though.
I’m not advocating putting yourself into net-loss situations like intentionally getting drunk to practice, but if you happen to find yourself in a state (like in a dream or having a high fever) that presents special challenges and there are no negative consequences to practicing rationality, I think it would be good to do so. When it’s easy to do in a dream or with a fever, it will be effortless in real life under “normal” circumstances.
Practicing in dreams and other altered states is like practicing with a self-imposed handicap. Just as a tennis player might practice under conditions and self-imposed constraints so severe that they would never come up in a real game, a rationalist might seek to hone their skills in unrealistically harsh environments.
If one could notice and counteract cognitive biases, accurately assess priors and calculate probabilities, etc. -- all while dreaming, drunk, tripping on LSD, sick with a 104 F fever, etc. (not that I’m recommending all those) -- then those skills would have become second nature and effortless in less severe environments. Just as a tennis player who practices playing 7-set matches at heat-wave temperatures against multiple practice partners is much better prepared to play a 5-set match at a less severe temperature against a single player.
Heh anonym, it happens to be the case that I myself attempted to do so after ingesting psilocybin. I think I did admirably… (though I’m not actually a full bayesian [or even a frequentist] about my rationality, working on it...). THC or alcohol seems all about mustering up the strength to do it, which I often fail to do. Of course, I’m thinking that now that I’ve been there done that, to be safe I won’t do it much more in my life.
Interesting! I’ve been wondering how that would play out. Any noticeable after effects or particular challenges to rational thinking worth noting?
It’s an interesting experience, and I would say that it is of at least some interest to the rationalist, given that I don’t think it has shown to have negative effects on the brain or anything like that. A while back, some people in this community were pondering whether it “altered the personality forever” which I haven’t seen be the case for any of my companions, so unless that came from scientific studies rather than anecdote I think that isn’t a concern of the rationalist either.
I have some audio tapes of the conversations we had during it, but I haven’t listened to them yet. I need to because my perception of what happened is probably a bit off from what actually happened. My companions put pretty much all their trust in me during the trip because I seemed to be making the best decisions (even though I was the n00b in the group). I never lost the knowledge that I was on a drug, though I hear that happens, and that would be quite a challenge to the rationalist indeed!
One interesting thing was that we would have to plan to do things several times. A lot of conversations had to happen over and over again because whenever you change your relationship with other objects in the room it can be so distracting that you forget what your goal was. Super Akrasia to the tenth. I guess similar things happen with THC, but I don’t think it’s for the same reasons.
Another interesting thing is that the idea of play-acting seemed to be really potent. Having been named rational, the impulse to merely ACT rational (rather than be rational) was nigh-overwhelming. In-group feelings were really strong, my companions had WAY more xenophobia than I experienced (I could remember how little people tend to care about what other people are doing, whereas my friends seemed to think every person was a secret police officer or something). I never hallucinated anything… but it is interesting to operate with a general skepticism of everything you think or see.
Different levels of the drug will cause widely different things. I was doing about the average dose. My friends were probably at a place where I’m not sure rationality was possible… that can happen and it’s interesting to think about (I never want to be there though).
Studies I have seen reported a positive and long term alteration of mood.
Indeed they do. However the dose they use in the psilocybin research equates to a much greater dose of mushrooms than the “average”(I’ll assume 3.5 grams of dry P. cubensis) dose goldfishlaser speaks of.
The whole point with psychedelic drugs is that one must take a high, overwhelming dose in order to experience the full gamut of experiential states possible.
I have an excellent cognitive psychology book published by OUP called The Antipodes of the Mind:
http://www.amazon.com/Antipodes-Mind-Phenomenology-Ayahuasca-Experience/dp/0199252939
The book takes an empirical, phenomenological approach. The author has gathered data from around 2,500 experiences with the plant based tea Ayahuasca(in effects it is rather like mushrooms yet typically stronger). He himself has taken the brew well over 100 times. This data is then analyzed in various ways: semantic content of visions, progression and stages of the experience, structural topology of visions, and so on. Please take a moment to browse the table of contents in the amazon online book preview to get a feel for both the academic seriousness of this book as well as the quite fascinating contents. Best of all, the author, Benny Shanon, includes numerical tables and a whole appendix devoted to explaining his research methodology.
I was going to joke about the next practice session is going to be getting really drunk and then going to a casino to count cards.
Actually, dart players who normally play/practice drunk perform better when intoxicated than sober. It won’t help your game if you normally play sober to start playing drunk though.
Do you have a source for this?
I’ve heard this type of claim repeatedly, but figured it was unlikely, and never got around to taking data.
Yeah, that would be taking it too far ;-).
I’m not advocating putting yourself into net-loss situations like intentionally getting drunk to practice, but if you happen to find yourself in a state (like in a dream or having a high fever) that presents special challenges and there are no negative consequences to practicing rationality, I think it would be good to do so. When it’s easy to do in a dream or with a fever, it will be effortless in real life under “normal” circumstances.