threaten to destroy Azkaban
destroying one of the Dementors
They would lock him away to protect the Dementors who are Britain’s most powerful magical weapon in reserve in case of war with another magical nation. (Quoth Dumbledore.)
offer the Wizengamot Voldemort’s true identity (Quirrel)
Harry doesn’t know that fact, so he can’t offer it. Anyway, how would it help to reverse the judgement against Hermione?
using the Time-turner to alter Hermione’s testimony to something easily falsifiable
Can’t use it to change what’s already happened. Hermione has already given her testimony, and Harry didn’t even listen so he wouldn’t be in a good position to subtly modify it. And the Veritaserum on her is already wearing off, precluding further testimony.
using the Time-turner to smuggle Hermione out under the Cloak
Harry and Hermione can’t be both under the Cloak at once. People under the Cloak can still be caught by physically feeling around. The Aurors would stop them (certainly the one who wasn’t under the Cloak at the time), and if they didn’t, Hermione would be running around the building Cloaked but with no real way out.
ask for a trial by combat
Wizengamot would have to vote to make the trial-by-combat’s results binding (otherwise why should it reverse the standing Wizengamot vote to punish Hermione?) Lucius will ask them not to vote so, because Dumbledore would be Harry’s champion, and so they won’t.
More generally, if Dumbledore could challenge Lucius to a duel every time a vote went against him, he’d have total control of the vote outcomes by virtue of being undefeatable in combat. And we know that’s not the case.
have Quirrel make Bella confess to the crime
What would be the explanation presented for why Bella comes forward to confess, without implicating Quirrel? Just “Voldemort ordered me to do this and then Obliviated me”? Everyone would suspect Voldemort also false-memory-charmed Bella into believing she did it. And why would Voldemort sacrifice his most trusted and powerful lieutenant, whom he recently rescued at great risk, and not some smaller pawn? And why would Voldemort execute a plan to murder Draco or to frame Hermione in the first place? And how would Bella have gotten into Hogwarts without the wards detecting it, or Dumbledore’s Map? And how could she be recovered enough already (if she appears to testify everyone will see she’s not very recovered yet)?
And to begin with you’d have to explain to members of the Wizengamot that Voldemort is still alive and that he broke out Bella from Azkaban. Imagine the panic—no reasoned debate would be possible after that. But without telling them this, how to explain that Bella is turning herself in, and that she has been Obliviated of everything during and after her escape?
Oh, and by inspecting Bella they will notice she does not in fact have her Animagus form again, which will cause Dumbledore to rethink some conclusions… (Edit: she has probably regained her Animagus form on Quirrel’s instructions, it would be stupid not to. See below.)
Regarding the Cloak, one possibility is that Harry could duplicate it using the Time Turner. (Harry[1] goes back in time, equips himself with Cloak[1], sneaks up to Harry[2] and take Cloak[2] from his pouch. He could use both cloaks to perform an impossible rescue, then return Cloak[2] to Harry[2]’s pouch.)
Oh, and by inspecting Bella they will notice she does not in fact have her Animagus form again, which will cause Dumbledore to rethink some conclusions...
I would be very surprised if Quirrell did not instruct Bellatrix to regain her Animagus form after she had sufficiently recovered from Azkaban. It would not be like him to go to all the trouble to present an alternative explanation for her escape but then fail to follow through.
But Harry and Bella couldn’t both be under the Cloak at once in Azkaban. That’s why Harry had to face the Dementors after he turned off his Patronus to evade Dumbledore. So MoR!verse differs from canon here.
Edit: seems I’m wrong and the cloak is barely big enough for two children but not big enough for a child+adult. This is so in canon and presumably in MoR as well.
Bellatrix is forty years old. Even half-starved, she’s a lot bigger than a twelve-year-old Hermione. (In canon, the Cloak got increasingly impractical for more than one person to use as time went on and the characters grew up.)
This is a bit of a nitpick, but although ~0% is justified from an in-universe perspective, out-of-universe shouldn’t you allow for the probability Elizier is planning one of these and has inadvertently introduced a massive plot hole?
My p. estimate that Eliezer introduced a plot hole (that I pointed out above, or that someone else here has pointed out) is indeed slightly higher than ~0. However, since Eliezer reads this thread, I believe in such a case he would rewrite the next several chapters. My final estimate is still emotionally-indistinguishable from 0.
Can’t use it to change what’s already happened. Hermione has already given her testimony, and Harry didn’t even listen so he wouldn’t be in a good position to subtly modify it. And the Veritaserum on her is already wearing off, precluding further testimony.
In canon, they thought they heard Buckbeak die, too. It could already be that Hermione gave altered testimony and Harry isn’t aware of it because he didn’t hear what she said because he wasn’t listening. In fact, that makes sense.
Well… you know, this actually wasn’t my idea and I’m not sure it would actually work, but playing devil’s advocate here...
...anybody notice that Hermione’s testimony contradicted itself? No; if they had, it would already have mattered.
...anybody notice that Hermione knew something she shouldn’t at her age? No; she reads too much.
...anybody notice that Hermione knew something she shouldn’t about Important Player In This Game? For instance, being able to mention what Voldemort looked like. It could be a subtle reference that Harry would have to point out because it flew under the radar. But it would really hurt Harry’s relationship with Lucius.
...hey, notice how Hermione didn’t know something Hermione should have known? It’d have to be subtle, but maybe if she mentioned uncertainty about something she should have known, it could do something...
Well, I don’t know. Eliezer’s got me stumped this time.
Harry didn’t listen, and Harry is coming up with a suggestion next week. (Or in a few seconds, depending on your POV.) So this can’t be relevant to that solution. So unless Harry’s solution will fail, this altered-testimony thing should not exist.
But it can be. Harry knows what the altered testimony will be because he just decided on how to alter it. He comments on the oddity, then goes back in time and causes it. Just like when he asked for a teacher’s help when Draco was torturing him.
It’s possible. But he’d be risking someone flatly contradicting him the moment he made his statement about the testimony—“no, you didn’t listen correctly, she didn’t really say that”. And afterwards, of course, there’s no point for him to go back in time because he’s received evidence that she did not in fact testify as he wished.
Your scheme would work a lot better if he’d just listened to her testimony. Then he would know what he had to go back in time to cause, regardless of the way he used her testimony now. (grin)
Yes, but the Wizengamot is stupid and Dumbledore etc wouldn’t be listening for changes; all Harry needs is one clear contradiction or impossibility. (What is it? Dunno.)
OK, but he hasn’t listened and hasn’t caught this contradiction, and nobody else has, either. So he won’t go back to plant anything.
And if he did, it would just raise a huge question of why her testimony differed in an important respect from the testimony she had given a day before on the same subject, also under Veritaserum.
My reasons for assigning ~0% to some of these:
They would lock him away to protect the Dementors who are Britain’s most powerful magical weapon in reserve in case of war with another magical nation. (Quoth Dumbledore.)
Harry doesn’t know that fact, so he can’t offer it. Anyway, how would it help to reverse the judgement against Hermione?
Can’t use it to change what’s already happened. Hermione has already given her testimony, and Harry didn’t even listen so he wouldn’t be in a good position to subtly modify it. And the Veritaserum on her is already wearing off, precluding further testimony.
Harry and Hermione can’t be both under the Cloak at once. People under the Cloak can still be caught by physically feeling around. The Aurors would stop them (certainly the one who wasn’t under the Cloak at the time), and if they didn’t, Hermione would be running around the building Cloaked but with no real way out.
Wizengamot would have to vote to make the trial-by-combat’s results binding (otherwise why should it reverse the standing Wizengamot vote to punish Hermione?) Lucius will ask them not to vote so, because Dumbledore would be Harry’s champion, and so they won’t.
More generally, if Dumbledore could challenge Lucius to a duel every time a vote went against him, he’d have total control of the vote outcomes by virtue of being undefeatable in combat. And we know that’s not the case.
What would be the explanation presented for why Bella comes forward to confess, without implicating Quirrel? Just “Voldemort ordered me to do this and then Obliviated me”? Everyone would suspect Voldemort also false-memory-charmed Bella into believing she did it. And why would Voldemort sacrifice his most trusted and powerful lieutenant, whom he recently rescued at great risk, and not some smaller pawn? And why would Voldemort execute a plan to murder Draco or to frame Hermione in the first place? And how would Bella have gotten into Hogwarts without the wards detecting it, or Dumbledore’s Map? And how could she be recovered enough already (if she appears to testify everyone will see she’s not very recovered yet)?
And to begin with you’d have to explain to members of the Wizengamot that Voldemort is still alive and that he broke out Bella from Azkaban. Imagine the panic—no reasoned debate would be possible after that. But without telling them this, how to explain that Bella is turning herself in, and that she has been Obliviated of everything during and after her escape?
Oh, and by inspecting Bella they will notice she does not in fact have her Animagus form again, which will cause Dumbledore to rethink some conclusions… (Edit: she has probably regained her Animagus form on Quirrel’s instructions, it would be stupid not to. See below.)
Regarding the Cloak, one possibility is that Harry could duplicate it using the Time Turner. (Harry[1] goes back in time, equips himself with Cloak[1], sneaks up to Harry[2] and take Cloak[2] from his pouch. He could use both cloaks to perform an impossible rescue, then return Cloak[2] to Harry[2]’s pouch.)
I would be very surprised if Quirrell did not instruct Bellatrix to regain her Animagus form after she had sufficiently recovered from Azkaban. It would not be like him to go to all the trouble to present an alternative explanation for her escape but then fail to follow through.
True. The real question is how much she has recovered.
They could in canon.
But Harry and Bella couldn’t both be under the Cloak at once in Azkaban. That’s why Harry had to face the Dementors after he turned off his Patronus to evade Dumbledore. So MoR!verse differs from canon here.
Edit: seems I’m wrong and the cloak is barely big enough for two children but not big enough for a child+adult. This is so in canon and presumably in MoR as well.
Bellatrix is forty years old. Even half-starved, she’s a lot bigger than a twelve-year-old Hermione. (In canon, the Cloak got increasingly impractical for more than one person to use as time went on and the characters grew up.)
You’re right then, it’s just my lack of knowledge of canon showing.
This is a bit of a nitpick, but although ~0% is justified from an in-universe perspective, out-of-universe shouldn’t you allow for the probability Elizier is planning one of these and has inadvertently introduced a massive plot hole?
My p. estimate that Eliezer introduced a plot hole (that I pointed out above, or that someone else here has pointed out) is indeed slightly higher than ~0. However, since Eliezer reads this thread, I believe in such a case he would rewrite the next several chapters. My final estimate is still emotionally-indistinguishable from 0.
In canon, they thought they heard Buckbeak die, too. It could already be that Hermione gave altered testimony and Harry isn’t aware of it because he didn’t hear what she said because he wasn’t listening. In fact, that makes sense.
But since that altered testimony hasn’t swayed the vote in her favor, why alter it in the first place?
Well… you know, this actually wasn’t my idea and I’m not sure it would actually work, but playing devil’s advocate here...
...anybody notice that Hermione’s testimony contradicted itself? No; if they had, it would already have mattered.
...anybody notice that Hermione knew something she shouldn’t at her age? No; she reads too much.
...anybody notice that Hermione knew something she shouldn’t about Important Player In This Game? For instance, being able to mention what Voldemort looked like. It could be a subtle reference that Harry would have to point out because it flew under the radar. But it would really hurt Harry’s relationship with Lucius.
...hey, notice how Hermione didn’t know something Hermione should have known? It’d have to be subtle, but maybe if she mentioned uncertainty about something she should have known, it could do something...
Well, I don’t know. Eliezer’s got me stumped this time.
Harry didn’t listen, and Harry is coming up with a suggestion next week. (Or in a few seconds, depending on your POV.) So this can’t be relevant to that solution. So unless Harry’s solution will fail, this altered-testimony thing should not exist.
But it can be. Harry knows what the altered testimony will be because he just decided on how to alter it. He comments on the oddity, then goes back in time and causes it. Just like when he asked for a teacher’s help when Draco was torturing him.
Causality is screwy in this universe, isn’t it?
It’s possible. But he’d be risking someone flatly contradicting him the moment he made his statement about the testimony—“no, you didn’t listen correctly, she didn’t really say that”. And afterwards, of course, there’s no point for him to go back in time because he’s received evidence that she did not in fact testify as he wished.
Your scheme would work a lot better if he’d just listened to her testimony. Then he would know what he had to go back in time to cause, regardless of the way he used her testimony now. (grin)
He would risk it the same way he risked not actually being found by a teacher.
Sure, that would be the smarter thing to do, but then it wouldn’t come as a surprise to the audience. This way it gives us and Harry a puzzle.
And Harry doesn’t yet know what has already happened—he wasn’t listening.
But whatever happened has already caused the Wizengamot to find her guilty and vote to sentence her to Azkaban.
Yes, but the Wizengamot is stupid and Dumbledore etc wouldn’t be listening for changes; all Harry needs is one clear contradiction or impossibility. (What is it? Dunno.)
Except that the Wizengamot is stupid. They might not care that Hermoine’s testimony is inconsistent, or they might put it down to bad memory.
OK, but he hasn’t listened and hasn’t caught this contradiction, and nobody else has, either. So he won’t go back to plant anything.
And if he did, it would just raise a huge question of why her testimony differed in an important respect from the testimony she had given a day before on the same subject, also under Veritaserum.