We have to create our own purpose and are own values (and this may or not be a communal activity) I think people who are not depressed or unhappy have no problem with the latter.
It is likely that this is a case in which minds might be different. While many kinds of minds might be susceptible to nihilistic angst when they’re depressed, one kind of mind protests emphatically that a purpose must be given by the universe regardless in order to feel like there is purpose. (For example, my mind.)
If you read through the comments following this post, you’ll find many that echo that they don’t need an externally validated meaning to be happy (forexamplethese) while a few claim that they would have a problem without it despite being otherwise happy (forexamplethese).
Thats a possibility. I’m not willing to accept that that is the case just based on the existence of disagreement however because I used to hold your view and then changed my mind. As recent as 4-5 years back I would have said that I had a case of genuine nihilism that would arise from time to time. I was really convinced that my emotional condition was due to substantive philosophical consideration of my own existence. Only after going back and forth between being happy and unhappy a couple times did I begin to see that the nihilism was merely a byproduct of my unhappiness.
Gathering anecdotal evidence:
Have you ever genuinely lacked for externally validated meaning? What can you say about the experience?
Do you or anyone else know someone who became unhappy immediately after giving up theism and claimed that the reason was nihilism? In my experience converted atheists seem to be about as happy as others in their social grouping (usually well-off but high IQ).
So we agree that some people feel like the absence of objective values would be the end of the world, and some people seem not to care. I’m open to the possibility that the difference in perspective is due to differences in depth of understanding of the problem. That’s why I began this thread asking what is the source of immunity. However, in response to my question, no one suggested any solutions or even acknowledged the problem independent of depression. For me, this was an alarm that people who have immunity to nihilist angst can’t even relate to it, suggesting some kind of personality difference between those who have it and those that don’t.
Gathering anecdotal evidence: Have you ever genuinely lacked for externally validated meaning?
This is an amazing question to me because I feel this lack pretty much constantly.
(This commenter also seemed skeptical that people feel this lack.) Actually, I’m probably an extreme case.
I’m hesitant to take the conversation in this direction because maybe nihilist angst isn’t always about personalities that require external validation. I would like to hear more from other people who experienced it.
Nevertheless, since it seems we first need to identify what it is like in at least one case, I’ll say some things about the experience in my next comment.
Do you or anyone else know someone who became unhappy immediately after giving up theism and claimed that the reason was nihilism?
I thought this was a significant reason for resistance to conversion!
In my experience converted atheists seem to be about as happy as others in their social grouping (usually well-off but high IQ).
I would expect so, since I wouldn’t expect someone to remain miserable in atheism indefinitely. I’ve heard atheists argue that once you don’t believe in God, you can’t go back to believing just because it would make you happier. I don’t think it’s so simple. If you stop believing in God and feel unhappy, this might (quite reasonably) be interpreted as an indication that atheism wasn’t the right belief system for them.
But there are also cases (drawing mostly from fiction, I guess) where people lose their faith and walk around unhappy for a few years and then maybe place their faith again.
I thought this was a significant reason for resistance to conversion!
The anticipation of this experience is enough to make people resist becoming atheists. The reality of it is not at all obvious, nor necessary to explain the phenomenon to which you refer.
I don’t think it’s so simple. If you stop believing in God and feel unhappy, this might (quite reasonably) be interpreted as an indication that atheism wasn’t the right belief system for them.
“The right belief system for them” implies that one prefers beliefs for reasons other than their accuracy, which tends not to be true of people who spend any amount of time as converted atheists.
But there are also cases (drawing mostly from fiction, I guess) where people lose their faith and walk around unhappy for a few years and then maybe place their faith again.
This is a powerful motif in fiction, and does get used a lot. It probably even happens in real life sometimes, but I’m inclined to impugn the depth of the initial transition to atheism in those cases. Someone who tries being an atheist, doesn’t like it, and goes back to being a theist may have acknowledged the existence of compelling arguments in atheism’s favor, but they didn’t percolate deeply enough to stick; it seems like this scenario resembles people who say things like “I should eat less chocolate” or “I should be a vegetarian” or “I should give more to charity” and don’t actually do so. They detect sound reasoning in favor of the proposition, but it doesn’t sit right with preferences or other beliefs, and so the reasoning is discarded by means of “faith” or equivalent mechanism of ignoring evidence.
I took the phrase “externally validated” from you but now I’m not sure if I we mean the same thing by it. In my understanding a meaning, purpose or value is “externally validated” if and only it justified by some fact of existence that is not a fact about the psychological states of human beings. So having a purpose that is to write the best music, for the reason that I love music, is not a purpose that has been externally validated (we might say self-validated). If I have that purpose for the reason that I’m good at writing music and society expects those who are good at music to dedicate their lives to it then that purpose is also not externally validated (call it socially validated). If I pursue music because I believe God wants me to worship him that way then the purpose is externally validated.
I write this out mostly to make sure you agree with this classification of the middle case.
This is an amazing question to me because I feel this lack pretty much constantly.
The next question is obviously “are you depressed?” But that also isn’t any of my business so don’t feel obligated to answer. If you aren’t then surely there is something you find enjoyable and valuable in your life. If this is the case then I don’t think you are experiencing genuine nihilism (your life has meaning after all). If you are depressed then there is a high likelihood I can alleviate your depression with medication. Once your depression clears up I’d bet you would find purposes and value aplenty. It is unlikely that preventing serotonin reuptake is a direct cause of forming new beliefs about value and purpose. It seems much more likely that a healthy level of serotonin is necessary for one to find things valuable and one’s life purposeful.
That’s my main argument right there.
I thought this was a significant reason for resistance to conversion!
The anticipation of a loss of meaning probably does lead to resistance. It would be like telling someone here to stop caring about humanity, or AI, or philosophy before they had actually stopped caring about it. But my claim is that once one gives up God, if one isn’t depressed, God will rapidly be replaced by other purposes and values.
I would expect so, since I wouldn’t expect someone to remain miserable in atheism indefinitely. I’ve heard atheists argue that once you don’t believe in God, you can’t go back to believing just because it would make you happier. I don’t think it’s so simple. If you stop believing in God and feel unhappy, this might (quite reasonably) be interpreted as an indication that atheism wasn’t the right belief system for them.
There are plenty of miserable, nihilistic atheists. It’s just that they’re depressed. I also suspect there are some deconversions caused by depression. God just doesn’t do it for the depressed. These deconversions are less likely to stick because the person doesn’t have reasons to disbelieve in God and so they will quickly find God again once you put them on SSRIs (or once they get happy again for whatever reason).
I write this out mostly to make sure you agree with this classification of the middle case.
Yes, that’s what I meant by externally validated. The middle case isn’t external validation because it’s still just society’s subjective opinion.
The next question is obviously “are you depressed?”
No, I’m not depressed. But as Alicorn correctly described, I anticipate being depressed.
… Your argument is beginning to sink in. If I feel depressed about something, then this just means I’m depressed, and I might need medication.
So, OK, if I jump the cliff, then I won’t feel depressed (unless I’m depressed).
(...)
Wow, I’m really beginning to understand this argument and its … depressing.
So you’re saying my sense of purpose and meaning is just a state of my body (say, serotonin levels) and whereas I think it could depend on something external—like whether my values are externally validated—you’re saying it’s just internal. I feel like I have purpose or I don’t, based on serotonin, say, and then I project that feeling as being caused by something external.
… So I imagine that I would be depressed if external meaning disappears, because I imagine that meaning comes externally.
The analogy to make all this rambling clear is that of me sitting in a room worried that if I close the curtains, it’s going to get dark. But you’re saying, no it doesn’t make any difference because the light in the room is coming from the table lamp, not the window.
I understand some kind of argument now, whether or not its the one you intended. I’ll meditate on it. I’ll simply observe that I do, in fact, feel extremely depressed about the light coming from the table and there not being any sun.
So, anyway, I’m going to go eat lunch because when I’m this sad it means my blood sugar is low.
So, anyway, I’m going to go eat lunch because usually when I’m sad it means my blood sugar is low.
Upvoted for this bit. This type of mood maintenance is a big deal—I consider it a major breakthrough of my teens that I started considering my emotions “things to be managed with chocolate and company and thought and sleep” instead of “things unrelated to anything I’ve been doing with myself that reflect the ultimate nature of reality and make me write bad poetry and contemplate suicide”.
Yes, I do feel much better after eating; no sadness at all.
Yet I hope you realize that I was also making an ironic statement about Jack’s argument while buying some time to think about it.
While depression leads our thoughts to existential and nihilistic angst (and bad poetry and suicidal thoughts) our feelings of happiness, meaning and purpose also depend upon our beliefs. Accurate or inaccurate, beliefs affect how we feel.
So my response to Jack’s argument is that if I believe that the purpose and meaning of my life depends upon objective value, then I will feel depressed if I believe that there isn’t any (even if I’m not clinically depressed). So I still need to examine these beliefs: whether feelings of purpose and meaning really do depend upon objective value as a necessary condition (for myself only, I understand this is not universal) and whether or not objective value exists.
If the first, and not the second, then this would mean that accurate beliefs and feelings of purpose and meaning are simply not compatible for me.
A refinement: Proper serotonin levels (lack of depression) confers the ability to assign meaning to things and take pleasure from that meaning—it’s more like the electricity that powers the lamp than the light itself. It’s still possible for the light to be off, even if the electricity is running.That’s what the original post was talking about: According to Eliezer, most people who claim to be suffering from existential angst need to realize that they can turn their light on for themselves, and figure out how to do so (Edit: without resorting to delusional thinking, which is how theists do it) - and that’s a solution that the Judeo-Christian view of things doesn’t suggest.
It is right that meaning and purpose don’t come from serontin levels. And serotonin levels aren’t the only cause of meaning assignment. But what I was denying above is that there are instances where someone is not depressed and yet also nihilistic (not having assigned meaning to anything). I think assigning meaning to the world is basically instinctual, if you aren’t depressed you’ll start valuing things without having to will it or make a conscious choice.
It does seem to be possible, for example in alexuthymics (example—and from the rest of that post, the poster doesn’t appear to be depressed). I’ll agree that such situations are rare, though, and perhaps impossible for people with normal brain-function.
The point I was making was more along the lines of ‘don’t assume you’re clinically depressed just because you don’t automatically notice meaning in things the instant you look for it’, though.
Great link, thanks. Unfortunately it led to a really intense reedit procrastination session. It did occur to me that there might be some kind of condition like this, and I thought about including that possibility but didn’t want to qualify the argument and make it more complicated. I should have checked to see if there was such a thing. Anyway yes, qualify my previous claim with “with normal brain function”.
The point I was making was more along the lines of ‘don’t assume you’re clinically depressed just because you don’t automatically notice meaning in things the instant you look for it’, though.
Sure. My position is just that chronic nihilism is epiphenomenal to unhappiness except in cases of non-standard brain function.
The analogy to make all this rambling clear is that of me sitting in a room worried that if I close the curtains, it’s going to get dark. But you’re saying, no it doesn’t make any difference because the light in the room is coming from the table lamp, not the window.
I understand some kind of argument now, whether or not its the one you intended. I’ll meditate on it. I’ll simply observe that I do, in fact, feel extremely depressed about the light coming from the table and there not being any sun.
Suppose that everyone has such a room, with a lamp giving a light just like your own. Is this not like a sun that we all share?
If you read through the comments following this post, you’ll find many that echo that they don’t need an externally validated meaning to be happy
What I was saying, at least, is not that I don’t need an external meaning, it’s that what you probably mean by ‘external meaning’ is incoherent. Can you say what you mean by those words?
It is likely that this is a case in which minds might be different. While many kinds of minds might be susceptible to nihilistic angst when they’re depressed, one kind of mind protests emphatically that a purpose must be given by the universe regardless in order to feel like there is purpose. (For example, my mind.)
If you read through the comments following this post, you’ll find many that echo that they don’t need an externally validated meaning to be happy (for example these) while a few claim that they would have a problem without it despite being otherwise happy (for example these).
If you read through the comments following What Would You Do Without Morality?, you’ll notice similar majority and minority populations.
Thats a possibility. I’m not willing to accept that that is the case just based on the existence of disagreement however because I used to hold your view and then changed my mind. As recent as 4-5 years back I would have said that I had a case of genuine nihilism that would arise from time to time. I was really convinced that my emotional condition was due to substantive philosophical consideration of my own existence. Only after going back and forth between being happy and unhappy a couple times did I begin to see that the nihilism was merely a byproduct of my unhappiness.
Gathering anecdotal evidence: Have you ever genuinely lacked for externally validated meaning? What can you say about the experience? Do you or anyone else know someone who became unhappy immediately after giving up theism and claimed that the reason was nihilism? In my experience converted atheists seem to be about as happy as others in their social grouping (usually well-off but high IQ).
So we agree that some people feel like the absence of objective values would be the end of the world, and some people seem not to care. I’m open to the possibility that the difference in perspective is due to differences in depth of understanding of the problem. That’s why I began this thread asking what is the source of immunity. However, in response to my question, no one suggested any solutions or even acknowledged the problem independent of depression. For me, this was an alarm that people who have immunity to nihilist angst can’t even relate to it, suggesting some kind of personality difference between those who have it and those that don’t.
This is an amazing question to me because I feel this lack pretty much constantly. (This commenter also seemed skeptical that people feel this lack.) Actually, I’m probably an extreme case.
I’m hesitant to take the conversation in this direction because maybe nihilist angst isn’t always about personalities that require external validation. I would like to hear more from other people who experienced it.
Nevertheless, since it seems we first need to identify what it is like in at least one case, I’ll say some things about the experience in my next comment.
I thought this was a significant reason for resistance to conversion!
I would expect so, since I wouldn’t expect someone to remain miserable in atheism indefinitely. I’ve heard atheists argue that once you don’t believe in God, you can’t go back to believing just because it would make you happier. I don’t think it’s so simple. If you stop believing in God and feel unhappy, this might (quite reasonably) be interpreted as an indication that atheism wasn’t the right belief system for them.
But there are also cases (drawing mostly from fiction, I guess) where people lose their faith and walk around unhappy for a few years and then maybe place their faith again.
The anticipation of this experience is enough to make people resist becoming atheists. The reality of it is not at all obvious, nor necessary to explain the phenomenon to which you refer.
“The right belief system for them” implies that one prefers beliefs for reasons other than their accuracy, which tends not to be true of people who spend any amount of time as converted atheists.
This is a powerful motif in fiction, and does get used a lot. It probably even happens in real life sometimes, but I’m inclined to impugn the depth of the initial transition to atheism in those cases. Someone who tries being an atheist, doesn’t like it, and goes back to being a theist may have acknowledged the existence of compelling arguments in atheism’s favor, but they didn’t percolate deeply enough to stick; it seems like this scenario resembles people who say things like “I should eat less chocolate” or “I should be a vegetarian” or “I should give more to charity” and don’t actually do so. They detect sound reasoning in favor of the proposition, but it doesn’t sit right with preferences or other beliefs, and so the reasoning is discarded by means of “faith” or equivalent mechanism of ignoring evidence.
I took the phrase “externally validated” from you but now I’m not sure if I we mean the same thing by it. In my understanding a meaning, purpose or value is “externally validated” if and only it justified by some fact of existence that is not a fact about the psychological states of human beings. So having a purpose that is to write the best music, for the reason that I love music, is not a purpose that has been externally validated (we might say self-validated). If I have that purpose for the reason that I’m good at writing music and society expects those who are good at music to dedicate their lives to it then that purpose is also not externally validated (call it socially validated). If I pursue music because I believe God wants me to worship him that way then the purpose is externally validated.
I write this out mostly to make sure you agree with this classification of the middle case.
The next question is obviously “are you depressed?” But that also isn’t any of my business so don’t feel obligated to answer. If you aren’t then surely there is something you find enjoyable and valuable in your life. If this is the case then I don’t think you are experiencing genuine nihilism (your life has meaning after all). If you are depressed then there is a high likelihood I can alleviate your depression with medication. Once your depression clears up I’d bet you would find purposes and value aplenty. It is unlikely that preventing serotonin reuptake is a direct cause of forming new beliefs about value and purpose. It seems much more likely that a healthy level of serotonin is necessary for one to find things valuable and one’s life purposeful.
That’s my main argument right there.
The anticipation of a loss of meaning probably does lead to resistance. It would be like telling someone here to stop caring about humanity, or AI, or philosophy before they had actually stopped caring about it. But my claim is that once one gives up God, if one isn’t depressed, God will rapidly be replaced by other purposes and values.
There are plenty of miserable, nihilistic atheists. It’s just that they’re depressed. I also suspect there are some deconversions caused by depression. God just doesn’t do it for the depressed. These deconversions are less likely to stick because the person doesn’t have reasons to disbelieve in God and so they will quickly find God again once you put them on SSRIs (or once they get happy again for whatever reason).
Yes, that’s what I meant by externally validated. The middle case isn’t external validation because it’s still just society’s subjective opinion.
No, I’m not depressed. But as Alicorn correctly described, I anticipate being depressed.
… Your argument is beginning to sink in. If I feel depressed about something, then this just means I’m depressed, and I might need medication.
So, OK, if I jump the cliff, then I won’t feel depressed (unless I’m depressed).
(...)
Wow, I’m really beginning to understand this argument and its … depressing.
So you’re saying my sense of purpose and meaning is just a state of my body (say, serotonin levels) and whereas I think it could depend on something external—like whether my values are externally validated—you’re saying it’s just internal. I feel like I have purpose or I don’t, based on serotonin, say, and then I project that feeling as being caused by something external.
… So I imagine that I would be depressed if external meaning disappears, because I imagine that meaning comes externally.
The analogy to make all this rambling clear is that of me sitting in a room worried that if I close the curtains, it’s going to get dark. But you’re saying, no it doesn’t make any difference because the light in the room is coming from the table lamp, not the window.
I understand some kind of argument now, whether or not its the one you intended. I’ll meditate on it. I’ll simply observe that I do, in fact, feel extremely depressed about the light coming from the table and there not being any sun.
So, anyway, I’m going to go eat lunch because when I’m this sad it means my blood sugar is low.
Upvoted for this bit. This type of mood maintenance is a big deal—I consider it a major breakthrough of my teens that I started considering my emotions “things to be managed with chocolate and company and thought and sleep” instead of “things unrelated to anything I’ve been doing with myself that reflect the ultimate nature of reality and make me write bad poetry and contemplate suicide”.
Yes, I do feel much better after eating; no sadness at all.
Yet I hope you realize that I was also making an ironic statement about Jack’s argument while buying some time to think about it.
While depression leads our thoughts to existential and nihilistic angst (and bad poetry and suicidal thoughts) our feelings of happiness, meaning and purpose also depend upon our beliefs. Accurate or inaccurate, beliefs affect how we feel.
So my response to Jack’s argument is that if I believe that the purpose and meaning of my life depends upon objective value, then I will feel depressed if I believe that there isn’t any (even if I’m not clinically depressed). So I still need to examine these beliefs: whether feelings of purpose and meaning really do depend upon objective value as a necessary condition (for myself only, I understand this is not universal) and whether or not objective value exists.
If the first, and not the second, then this would mean that accurate beliefs and feelings of purpose and meaning are simply not compatible for me.
A refinement: Proper serotonin levels (lack of depression) confers the ability to assign meaning to things and take pleasure from that meaning—it’s more like the electricity that powers the lamp than the light itself. It’s still possible for the light to be off, even if the electricity is running.That’s what the original post was talking about: According to Eliezer, most people who claim to be suffering from existential angst need to realize that they can turn their light on for themselves, and figure out how to do so (Edit: without resorting to delusional thinking, which is how theists do it) - and that’s a solution that the Judeo-Christian view of things doesn’t suggest.
It is right that meaning and purpose don’t come from serontin levels. And serotonin levels aren’t the only cause of meaning assignment. But what I was denying above is that there are instances where someone is not depressed and yet also nihilistic (not having assigned meaning to anything). I think assigning meaning to the world is basically instinctual, if you aren’t depressed you’ll start valuing things without having to will it or make a conscious choice.
It does seem to be possible, for example in alexuthymics (example—and from the rest of that post, the poster doesn’t appear to be depressed). I’ll agree that such situations are rare, though, and perhaps impossible for people with normal brain-function.
The point I was making was more along the lines of ‘don’t assume you’re clinically depressed just because you don’t automatically notice meaning in things the instant you look for it’, though.
Great link, thanks. Unfortunately it led to a really intense reedit procrastination session. It did occur to me that there might be some kind of condition like this, and I thought about including that possibility but didn’t want to qualify the argument and make it more complicated. I should have checked to see if there was such a thing. Anyway yes, qualify my previous claim with “with normal brain function”.
Sure. My position is just that chronic nihilism is epiphenomenal to unhappiness except in cases of non-standard brain function.
Suppose that everyone has such a room, with a lamp giving a light just like your own. Is this not like a sun that we all share?
What I was saying, at least, is not that I don’t need an external meaning, it’s that what you probably mean by ‘external meaning’ is incoherent. Can you say what you mean by those words?