In other words, how will I acquire the traits that women find arousing in men. These traits include physical health (toned muscles, stamina), mental health, intelligence (emotional, mechanical), conscientiousness and agreeableness/assertiveness.
Pardon my speaking the obvious, but I feel like the key missing element is ‘status’. If you have more status, you will be more rewarded for your progress in each of those areas. A person who is giving a widely-attended lecture is much more rewarded for improvements to their wit and charm than the person quietly watching in the audience.
Optimizing for status is very difficult since that is the thing everyone else is also optimizing for, and it is also a positional good. Pursuing other goals that have higher positive flow-through effects such as exercise is probably more useful on the margin, unless I’m overlooking flow-through effects from status.
Temporarily gaining status is very doable though; there are many communities where I believe I’m high status, but i don’t tend to interact with them much. Some of them would be a good fit for me if I were in OP’s position.
The main reason is just that status is ambiguous between a “trait” and a “proof”. Status is attractive partly because it mentally healthy, socially intelligent men will rise in status faster. But there’s also an element of status being intrinsically useful because it’s a resource to provide for a family.
The most efficient status-increasing interventions are all about presentation. Like I could get a white-house job to increase my status, but that would be super hard work. Earning the respect of my friends and advertising my career successes would also increase my status and is way easier. So I’ll address it in the “proofs” post.
The most efficient status-increasing interventions are all about presentation.
Presentation is like a 100% bonus to the actual trait. When you are low on skills, it is better to focus on the actual skills, because beginners can learn fast, and the skills are useful for things other than signaling. But when you become good enough (not perfect, just at the point when doubling your skill again would take way more time than learning how to present it), it’s time to think about how you display your skills.
Also, consider how much your audience can measure your actual traits. If they can, too much exaggeration can backfire. If they cannot, sky is the limit. Or rather, the limit is their priors on “how likely am I to meet a person with trait X” rather than your actual trait.
status is not ideally a hierarchical variable. “status” is better evaluated as a relationship-status-per-person, ie “will interactions with this person be good?” as an ongoing prediction variable in each person’s mental relationship tracker, combined with some sort of reputation variable (predictor of whether the person is honest and kind), some sort of respectability variable (predictor of whether a wide variety of people will find a person impressive quickly), and maybe a few others. reducing “status” down to a single dimension is a reduced model that only works if you want to date fools. people are allergic to the word for a reason, and it isn’t that hierarchy isn’t real, it’s that hierarchy is bad.
certainly impressing a lot of people can make you look more impressive, because impressing a lot of people gives evidence that you are impressive.
however, the low-dimensional “status” variable seems to me to be a key confusion in the process of encouraging toxicity in relationships. imo, it’s incredibly important to tightly track connection state per person, and focus on connection state variables that are updated by individual interactions being fun and etc. see also my old (and somewhat low quality) post on the topic back from when I was trying to figure out what it is that dent brill had done to confuse everyone so badly.
If you are a piller in your friend group and people rely you that’s status. If you introduce a woman to you friends it’s attractive if those friends consider you a piller of the friend group.
If status is “ideally not a hierarchical variable”, then ignore what I said, and replace it with “Playing a key role, high up in a social hierarchy, will cause your existing attractive traits to be better seen and responded to”.
I’m saying that trying to optimize for being “high up a social hierarchy” is, structurally, the kind of thing one does when their social network is hierarchical, and having a hierarchical social network is something to ideally optimize against. far better to have a distance-based attention hierarchy-of-distance, which is optimized to spend more attention on those who don’t currently have an excess of attention. “social hierarchy” is another term for the same thing as “status”—my point is that healthy social networks only appear to have “hierarchy” of who’s closest, not a tapering as you go one direction. optimize the aesthetics you accept into your life to be ones that build community networks, not ones that build top down control structures. down with all -archy.
This in conflict with my personal strong prior that all institutions function better the fewer the number of people required to make decisions for the group.
In my 8-person group-house, one person was picked to be responsible for maintaining and improving the house. We chipped in to pay this person a small monthly salary, and could majority-vote them out of the position at any time. The person was welcome to make any decision they wanted about furniture, events, house meetings, the gardens, and so on. This led to an equilibrium of them putting in the work to get house buy-in for their decisions, and led to much faster and more functional decisions than anything more consensus-shaped.
In my team, one person on any project is the decision-maker. This person can lose enough social capital to be removed from their role or fired, but unless that severe action is taken, they are within their rights to make whatever decisions they chose, to listen to others as much or as little as they choose, etc. This allows them to see a project through full in their vision, and be responsible for as much of it as possible, and in my experience leaves them with much less friction in carrying out great work, rather than each decision being carefully weighted in a conflict with those who disagree.
I suspect basically all healthy groups will function well if there’s someone with the power to improve it, and accountability in place so that they will lose power and respect if they do a bad job. This is true of even very fun/social groups (e.g. sports groups, interest clubs, shared housing, towns, web forums, etc).
This leads to many many social hierarchies, so I disagree that social hierarchies are not worth the costs.
hierarchical control is fundamentally unstable for what amount to incentive corruption safety reasons. while it is important for there to be people who know it is their job to take an action, it is also critical that nobody be given authority over another being, under any circumstances. the only kind of hierarchy that could be imagined to be acceptable is a temporary skill hierarchy. if we are to create a world worth living in, we’re going to need to move past this obsession with hierarchy. and to keep it on topic—since women are more often on the losing side of zero- or negative-sum play of authority-power games, I’d expect that as a man, you’ll be more successful if you make an effort to remove authority-status from yourself and instead make yourself independently capable and able to produce positive-sum cooperation in groups. ie, don’t attempt to take power over others via “status”, simply take actions to make things better.
It seems to me that you assert that a world with hierarchy would be better without providing an argument for why you believe that. Given Ben made an argument just saying you disagree without arguing why is not what I want to see on LessWrong.
Pardon my speaking the obvious, but I feel like the key missing element is ‘status’. If you have more status, you will be more rewarded for your progress in each of those areas. A person who is giving a widely-attended lecture is much more rewarded for improvements to their wit and charm than the person quietly watching in the audience.
Optimizing for status is very difficult since that is the thing everyone else is also optimizing for, and it is also a positional good. Pursuing other goals that have higher positive flow-through effects such as exercise is probably more useful on the margin, unless I’m overlooking flow-through effects from status.
Temporarily gaining status is very doable though; there are many communities where I believe I’m high status, but i don’t tend to interact with them much. Some of them would be a good fit for me if I were in OP’s position.
Exactly, this is the ring everyone else is optimizing for. So it’s tough to get relative to the other interventions.
Haha yeah status is sexy!
The main reason is just that status is ambiguous between a “trait” and a “proof”. Status is attractive partly because it mentally healthy, socially intelligent men will rise in status faster. But there’s also an element of status being intrinsically useful because it’s a resource to provide for a family.
The most efficient status-increasing interventions are all about presentation. Like I could get a white-house job to increase my status, but that would be super hard work. Earning the respect of my friends and advertising my career successes would also increase my status and is way easier. So I’ll address it in the “proofs” post.
Presentation is like a 100% bonus to the actual trait. When you are low on skills, it is better to focus on the actual skills, because beginners can learn fast, and the skills are useful for things other than signaling. But when you become good enough (not perfect, just at the point when doubling your skill again would take way more time than learning how to present it), it’s time to think about how you display your skills.
Also, consider how much your audience can measure your actual traits. If they can, too much exaggeration can backfire. If they cannot, sky is the limit. Or rather, the limit is their priors on “how likely am I to meet a person with trait X” rather than your actual trait.
status is not ideally a hierarchical variable. “status” is better evaluated as a relationship-status-per-person, ie “will interactions with this person be good?” as an ongoing prediction variable in each person’s mental relationship tracker, combined with some sort of reputation variable (predictor of whether the person is honest and kind), some sort of respectability variable (predictor of whether a wide variety of people will find a person impressive quickly), and maybe a few others. reducing “status” down to a single dimension is a reduced model that only works if you want to date fools. people are allergic to the word for a reason, and it isn’t that hierarchy isn’t real, it’s that hierarchy is bad.
certainly impressing a lot of people can make you look more impressive, because impressing a lot of people gives evidence that you are impressive.
however, the low-dimensional “status” variable seems to me to be a key confusion in the process of encouraging toxicity in relationships. imo, it’s incredibly important to tightly track connection state per person, and focus on connection state variables that are updated by individual interactions being fun and etc. see also my old (and somewhat low quality) post on the topic back from when I was trying to figure out what it is that dent brill had done to confuse everyone so badly.
There is a failure mode here of overinvesting in status signals and underinvesting in being a pillar of your friend group.
I already have a good “status” so it’s not a priority anyway, relative to the other areas.
If you are a piller in your friend group and people rely you that’s status. If you introduce a woman to you friends it’s attractive if those friends consider you a piller of the friend group.
If status is “ideally not a hierarchical variable”, then ignore what I said, and replace it with “Playing a key role, high up in a social hierarchy, will cause your existing attractive traits to be better seen and responded to”.
I’m saying that trying to optimize for being “high up a social hierarchy” is, structurally, the kind of thing one does when their social network is hierarchical, and having a hierarchical social network is something to ideally optimize against. far better to have a distance-based attention hierarchy-of-distance, which is optimized to spend more attention on those who don’t currently have an excess of attention. “social hierarchy” is another term for the same thing as “status”—my point is that healthy social networks only appear to have “hierarchy” of who’s closest, not a tapering as you go one direction. optimize the aesthetics you accept into your life to be ones that build community networks, not ones that build top down control structures. down with all -archy.
This in conflict with my personal strong prior that all institutions function better the fewer the number of people required to make decisions for the group.
In my 8-person group-house, one person was picked to be responsible for maintaining and improving the house. We chipped in to pay this person a small monthly salary, and could majority-vote them out of the position at any time. The person was welcome to make any decision they wanted about furniture, events, house meetings, the gardens, and so on. This led to an equilibrium of them putting in the work to get house buy-in for their decisions, and led to much faster and more functional decisions than anything more consensus-shaped.
In my team, one person on any project is the decision-maker. This person can lose enough social capital to be removed from their role or fired, but unless that severe action is taken, they are within their rights to make whatever decisions they chose, to listen to others as much or as little as they choose, etc. This allows them to see a project through full in their vision, and be responsible for as much of it as possible, and in my experience leaves them with much less friction in carrying out great work, rather than each decision being carefully weighted in a conflict with those who disagree.
I suspect basically all healthy groups will function well if there’s someone with the power to improve it, and accountability in place so that they will lose power and respect if they do a bad job. This is true of even very fun/social groups (e.g. sports groups, interest clubs, shared housing, towns, web forums, etc).
This leads to many many social hierarchies, so I disagree that social hierarchies are not worth the costs.
hierarchical control is fundamentally unstable for what amount to incentive corruption safety reasons. while it is important for there to be people who know it is their job to take an action, it is also critical that nobody be given authority over another being, under any circumstances. the only kind of hierarchy that could be imagined to be acceptable is a temporary skill hierarchy. if we are to create a world worth living in, we’re going to need to move past this obsession with hierarchy. and to keep it on topic—since women are more often on the losing side of zero- or negative-sum play of authority-power games, I’d expect that as a man, you’ll be more successful if you make an effort to remove authority-status from yourself and instead make yourself independently capable and able to produce positive-sum cooperation in groups. ie, don’t attempt to take power over others via “status”, simply take actions to make things better.
I have tried both approaches at different points in my life, and I have found in my experience, your expectation here does not hold
It seems to me that you assert that a world with hierarchy would be better without providing an argument for why you believe that. Given Ben made an argument just saying you disagree without arguing why is not what I want to see on LessWrong.