Why haven’t these macho driving enthusiasts tried to ban chauffeurs or taxis? Why haven’t they organized against automatic transmissions or cruise control or parking assist, etc. Again, you just seem like a conspiracy theorist.
I’m reminded of an Irish guy who once said that using manual transmission is one of the three things all men should be able to do (the other two being using maps rather than asking for directions, and opening jars). (Not sure how serious he was.)
(Anyway, it’s cultural. In Italy, pretty much everybody uses manual transmission, regardless of their gender.)
Wow. I didn’t know that. (I would have assumed that deciding which gear is most efficient at a given speed was something machines would be better at than humans.) What’s it good for, then?
Automatics are easier to use and probably safer, since both hands can be kept on the wheel. The fuel efficiency reduction is (I think) mainly because of the energy used in the pumping of hydraulic fluid, not switching gears poorly.
Claim 1: There are reasons a lot of people do not themselves want to utilize autonomous cars. One of those reasons is their attachment to personally driving cars, what that self-signals and other-signals. There are other reasons.
Claim 2: People are prone to confuse “I do not want to use this because I feel threatened by it” with “I object to autonomous cars” with “This should be forbidden for everyone”. It makes sense, in a way, since with noone being allowed to do X / having X (in this case autonomous cars), there is less actual change to fear and less pressure to defend your individual aversion.
Your conclusion: I’m saying that macho driving enthusiasts try to ban chauffeurs or taxis. This is, of course, nonsense, since a culture that uses chauffeurs or taxis, which are humans, does not threaten the paradigm of “humans themselves control the driving”. Automatic transmissions are an absolute rarity e.g. in Europe (which we aren’t talking about), but even in the US do not trigger the “a machine is in control” angst. It does not follow that being afraid of losing control of the car means every small step along that way must be perceived that way. There is a qualititative difference between automatic transmissions, cruise control or parking assist and self-driving “enter your destination” type autonomous cars.
(What’s with the strawmanning, this isn’t Reddit.)
I didn’t misspell the word, so I’m not sure why you’re accusing me of that.
You obviously aren’t even reading my comments. You still have never explained why anyone would feel their own identity was threatened by someone else making a different decision about cars. Most new technologies are viewed with some concern at first. For some reason you are trying to make this about the evils of “male-identity,” instead of normal tech-wariness.
The obvious examples are all political, think “why anyone would feel their own identity was threatened by someone else making a different decision about X” with X being any of (more loaded—because they deal with identity-loaded issues) marriage, abortions, etc.
We seem to differ mostly about how important (not for functional, but signalling/identity—which I see as self-signalling—purposes) cars are to the average American. Is that correct? The market for fast luxury cars (Porsche et al) seems to indicate there is something not strictly functional going on. How many would buy an autonomous 911 versus one you drive yourself?
(Also, it would’ve been hard to quote “chaffeur” without having read the c, the h, the a, the f, another f, the e, the u and the r. I did miss a “u”, sorry for that. Still, 8 out of 9! Hopefully that’s settled then.)
We seem to differ mostly about how important (not for functional, but signalling/identity—which I see as self-signalling—purposes) cars are to the average American. Is that correct?
No, that is not the crux of our disagreement. I do disagree somewhat, but that is a side-argument.*
The main disagreement we have is rooted in this:
However, I’ve seen the more general pattern all too often: “I personally object to X, therefore X should be forbidden for everyone.” Gay marriage, abortion, THC, you name it.
and this:
The obvious examples are all political, think “why anyone would feel their own identity was threatened by someone else making a different decision about X” with X being any of (more loaded—because they deal with identity-loaded issues) marriage, abortions, etc.
Do you also think that liberals oppose guns, GMOs, and fission power plants out of a desire to protect their personal identities? Or do they actually have some reasons to be concerned?
You are really assuming the worst about the people you disagree with. I think the reason some people are wary of self-driving cars is that they are actually afraid of harm caused by self-driving cars. My position has the benefit of simplicity: people are saying what they mean. Your position is based on woo about gender identity and subconscious motivations.
Personally I disagree with the people who are afraid of self-driving cars.
I disagree with the dichotomy you’ve set up—not everything is about utilitarian function or signalling. Many car drivers enjoy their fast cars because they are fun—in the same way puzzles, action movies, drugs, roller coasters, and cooking are fun. Because of the kick of endorphins they get from going 150 mph, etc. But certainly signalling is also a major part of car decisions.
While I am claiming that A: “I personally do not like / object to X based on subconscious etc. reasons” leads to B: “X should be illegal” all too often, I am not claiming that B: “X should be illegal” necessarily implies A:”(...) because of subsconscious etc. motivations”.
Does that explanation help?
Do you also think that liberals oppose guns, GMOs, and fission power plants out of a desire to protect their personal identities? Or do they actually have some reasons to be concerned?
In part, yes. Nothing better for building group identity than a common enemy to rally against. There are legitimate actual reasons, but looking at protestors chaining themselves to train tracks to stop trains with fissile material, I’d doubt they are driven mostly by rational reasoning.
Personally I disagree with the people who are afraid of self-driving cars.
So do I. I’d be happy to be an early adopter.
I didn’t aim to set up an absolute dichotomy, I’ll reread my previous comments for clarity. It was merely a reason among many (two of which I expounded upon).
Why haven’t these macho driving enthusiasts tried to ban chauffeurs or taxis? Why haven’t they organized against automatic transmissions or cruise control or parking assist, etc. Again, you just seem like a conspiracy theorist.
I’m reminded of an Irish guy who once said that using manual transmission is one of the three things all men should be able to do (the other two being using maps rather than asking for directions, and opening jars). (Not sure how serious he was.)
(Anyway, it’s cultural. In Italy, pretty much everybody uses manual transmission, regardless of their gender.)
I assume Europeans use manual because the automatics decrease fuel efficiency and fuel is usually twice as expensive in Europe.
Wow. I didn’t know that. (I would have assumed that deciding which gear is most efficient at a given speed was something machines would be better at than humans.) What’s it good for, then?
Automatics are easier to use and probably safer, since both hands can be kept on the wheel. The fuel efficiency reduction is (I think) mainly because of the energy used in the pumping of hydraulic fluid, not switching gears poorly.
Funny.
Again, as clearly as I can:
Claim 1: There are reasons a lot of people do not themselves want to utilize autonomous cars. One of those reasons is their attachment to personally driving cars, what that self-signals and other-signals. There are other reasons.
Claim 2: People are prone to confuse “I do not want to use this because I feel threatened by it” with “I object to autonomous cars” with “This should be forbidden for everyone”. It makes sense, in a way, since with noone being allowed to do X / having X (in this case autonomous cars), there is less actual change to fear and less pressure to defend your individual aversion.
Your conclusion: I’m saying that macho driving enthusiasts try to ban chauffeurs or taxis. This is, of course, nonsense, since a culture that uses chauffeurs or taxis, which are humans, does not threaten the paradigm of “humans themselves control the driving”. Automatic transmissions are an absolute rarity e.g. in Europe (which we aren’t talking about), but even in the US do not trigger the “a machine is in control” angst. It does not follow that being afraid of losing control of the car means every small step along that way must be perceived that way. There is a qualititative difference between automatic transmissions, cruise control or parking assist and self-driving “enter your destination” type autonomous cars.
(What’s with the strawmanning, this isn’t Reddit.)
I didn’t misspell the word, so I’m not sure why you’re accusing me of that.
You obviously aren’t even reading my comments. You still have never explained why anyone would feel their own identity was threatened by someone else making a different decision about cars. Most new technologies are viewed with some concern at first. For some reason you are trying to make this about the evils of “male-identity,” instead of normal tech-wariness.
The obvious examples are all political, think “why anyone would feel their own identity was threatened by someone else making a different decision about X” with X being any of (more loaded—because they deal with identity-loaded issues) marriage, abortions, etc.
We seem to differ mostly about how important (not for functional, but signalling/identity—which I see as self-signalling—purposes) cars are to the average American. Is that correct? The market for fast luxury cars (Porsche et al) seems to indicate there is something not strictly functional going on. How many would buy an autonomous 911 versus one you drive yourself?
(Also, it would’ve been hard to quote “chaffeur” without having read the c, the h, the a, the f, another f, the e, the u and the r. I did miss a “u”, sorry for that. Still, 8 out of 9! Hopefully that’s settled then.)
No, that is not the crux of our disagreement. I do disagree somewhat, but that is a side-argument.*
The main disagreement we have is rooted in this:
and this:
Do you also think that liberals oppose guns, GMOs, and fission power plants out of a desire to protect their personal identities? Or do they actually have some reasons to be concerned?
You are really assuming the worst about the people you disagree with. I think the reason some people are wary of self-driving cars is that they are actually afraid of harm caused by self-driving cars. My position has the benefit of simplicity: people are saying what they mean. Your position is based on woo about gender identity and subconscious motivations.
Personally I disagree with the people who are afraid of self-driving cars.
I disagree with the dichotomy you’ve set up—not everything is about utilitarian function or signalling. Many car drivers enjoy their fast cars because they are fun—in the same way puzzles, action movies, drugs, roller coasters, and cooking are fun. Because of the kick of endorphins they get from going 150 mph, etc. But certainly signalling is also a major part of car decisions.
While I am claiming that A: “I personally do not like / object to X based on subconscious etc. reasons” leads to B: “X should be illegal” all too often, I am not claiming that B: “X should be illegal” necessarily implies A:”(...) because of subsconscious etc. motivations”.
Does that explanation help?
In part, yes. Nothing better for building group identity than a common enemy to rally against. There are legitimate actual reasons, but looking at protestors chaining themselves to train tracks to stop trains with fissile material, I’d doubt they are driven mostly by rational reasoning.
So do I. I’d be happy to be an early adopter.
I didn’t aim to set up an absolute dichotomy, I’ll reread my previous comments for clarity. It was merely a reason among many (two of which I expounded upon).
Alright, mind addressing my comment now?
I added some.