Regardless of whether you think censoring is net good or bad (for the forums, for the world, for SIAI), you have to realize the risks are far more on Eliezer than they are on any poster. His low tolerance responses and angry swearing are exactly what you should expect of someone who feels the need to project an image of complete disassociation from any lines of speculation that could possibly get him in legal trouble. Eliezer’s PR concerns are not just of the forums in general. If he’s being consistent, they should be informing every one of his comments on this topic. There’s little to nothing to be gained by trying to apply logic against this sort of totally justifiable (in my mind) conversational caution. Eliezer should probably also delete any comments about keeping criminal discussions off the public internet.
This is also why trying to point out his Okcupid profile as a PR snafu is a non sequitur. Nothing there can actually get him in trouble with the law.
PR is something different than legal trouble. Eliezer didn’t express any concern that the speech he wants to censor would create legal trouble. If Eliezer wants to make that argument I should make that argument directly instead of speaking about PR.
In the US speech that encourages violent conduct is protect under the first amendment. See Brandenburg v. Ohio.
If you actually to want to protect against legal threats you should also forbid a lot of discussion that could fall under UK libel law.
you have to realize the risks are far more on Eliezer than they are on any poster
This, I think, is the fundamental point of diagreement here. The emotional valence is far greater on Eliezer than on us, but if we’re taking seriously the proposition that the singularity is coming in our lifetimes (and I do), then the risks are the same for all of us.
His low tolerance responses and angry swearing are exactly what you should expect
Angry swearing? Did I miss some posts? Link please.
This is also why trying to point out his Okcupid profile as a PR snafu is a non sequitur.
I suppose I should point out that when I referred earlier to Eliezer’s occasional lapses in judgement, I was absolutely NOT intending to refer to this. I wasn’t actively commenting at the time, but looking back on that episode, I found a lot of the criticism of Eliezer regarding his OKcupid profile to be downright offensive. When I first read the profile, I was actually incredibly impressed by the courage he displayed in not hiding anything about who he is.
When I first read the profile, I was actually incredibly impressed by the courage he displayed in not hiding anything about who he is.
In my experience, it’s difficult to display a high level of courage about revealing the truth about myself and at the same time commit to moderating the image I present so as to avoid public-relations failures. At some point, tradeoffs become necessary.
I think it’s fairly reasonable for Eliezer to guard against large risks for himself in exchange for small and entirely theoretical risks to the effectiveness of the forums. I don’t think this censorship decision has a very meaningful impact either way on FAI. You can also factor his own (possibly inflated) evaluation of his value to the cause. A 0.01 percent chance of Eliezer getting jailed might be worse than 10 percent chance of stifling a mildly useful conversation or having someone quit the forums due to censorship.
I don’t think this censorship decision has a very meaningful impact either way on FAI.
I disagree. One of the most common objections to the idea of FAI/CEV is “so will this new god-like AI restrict fundamental civil liberties after it takes over?”
Fundamental civil liberties is also a fundamentally diseased concept.
If you explain that position in huge detail, there a plausible chance that it includes advocation of illegal conduct and could therefore be censored through this policy.
Keep in mind that the policy is going to be done through human implementation with the specific intention of avoiding inconveniently broad interpretations like this.
It’s not enough to show that the censorship policy could theoretically be used to stifle conversation we actually want here, the important question is whether it actually would be.
It’s not enough to show that the censorship policy could theoretically be used to stifle conversation we actually want here, the important question is whether it actually would be.
I think that’s a very dangerous idea. This community is about developing FAI. FAI should be expected to act according to the rules that you give it. I think the policy should be judged by the way it would actually work if it would be applied as it’s proposed.
There also the problem of encouraging group think: Advocating of illegal conduct gets censored when it goes against the morality of this group but is allowed when it’s within the realms of that morality is bad.
This community should have consistent rules about which discussions are allowed and which aren’t. Censoring on a case by case is problematic.
If you start censoring certain speech that advocates violence and avoid censoring other speech that advocates violence you also have the problem that you get more responsibility for the speech that you allow.
In the absence of a censorship policy you don’t endorse a viewpoint by not censoring the viewpoint. If you however do censor, and you do make decisions not to censor specific speech that’s an endorsement of that speech.
The way it’s proposed is to be applied according to the judgment of a moderator. It makes no sense to pretend that we’re beholden to the strictest letter of the rule when that’s not how it’s actually going to work.
What speech that advocates violence do you think would get a pass while the rest would get censored?
I don’t know excatly how much speech Eliezier wants to censor. I wrote a post with a bunch of examples. I would like to see with of those example Eliezer considers worthy of censorship.
Please explain. (I’ve heard this argued before, but I’m curious what your particular angle on it is)
He is probably pattern-matching “fundamental civil liberties” to Natural Rights, which are not taken very seriously around these parts, since they are mostly myth.
Regardless of whether you think censoring is net good or bad (for the forums, for the world, for SIAI), you have to realize the risks are far more on Eliezer than they are on any poster. His low tolerance responses and angry swearing are exactly what you should expect of someone who feels the need to project an image of complete disassociation from any lines of speculation that could possibly get him in legal trouble. Eliezer’s PR concerns are not just of the forums in general. If he’s being consistent, they should be informing every one of his comments on this topic. There’s little to nothing to be gained by trying to apply logic against this sort of totally justifiable (in my mind) conversational caution. Eliezer should probably also delete any comments about keeping criminal discussions off the public internet.
This is also why trying to point out his Okcupid profile as a PR snafu is a non sequitur. Nothing there can actually get him in trouble with the law.
PR is something different than legal trouble. Eliezer didn’t express any concern that the speech he wants to censor would create legal trouble. If Eliezer wants to make that argument I should make that argument directly instead of speaking about PR.
In the US speech that encourages violent conduct is protect under the first amendment. See Brandenburg v. Ohio.
If you actually to want to protect against legal threats you should also forbid a lot of discussion that could fall under UK libel law.
This, I think, is the fundamental point of diagreement here. The emotional valence is far greater on Eliezer than on us, but if we’re taking seriously the proposition that the singularity is coming in our lifetimes (and I do), then the risks are the same for all of us.
Angry swearing? Did I miss some posts? Link please.
I suppose I should point out that when I referred earlier to Eliezer’s occasional lapses in judgement, I was absolutely NOT intending to refer to this. I wasn’t actively commenting at the time, but looking back on that episode, I found a lot of the criticism of Eliezer regarding his OKcupid profile to be downright offensive. When I first read the profile, I was actually incredibly impressed by the courage he displayed in not hiding anything about who he is.
In my experience, it’s difficult to display a high level of courage about revealing the truth about myself and at the same time commit to moderating the image I present so as to avoid public-relations failures. At some point, tradeoffs become necessary.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/g24/new_censorship_against_hypothetical_violence/84fd but I think there’s others
I think it’s fairly reasonable for Eliezer to guard against large risks for himself in exchange for small and entirely theoretical risks to the effectiveness of the forums. I don’t think this censorship decision has a very meaningful impact either way on FAI. You can also factor his own (possibly inflated) evaluation of his value to the cause. A 0.01 percent chance of Eliezer getting jailed might be worse than 10 percent chance of stifling a mildly useful conversation or having someone quit the forums due to censorship.
I disagree. One of the most common objections to the idea of FAI/CEV is “so will this new god-like AI restrict fundamental civil liberties after it takes over?”
I’ve never heard this objection.
Fundamental civil liberties is also a fundamentally diseased concept.
If you explain that position in huge detail, there a plausible chance that it includes advocation of illegal conduct and could therefore be censored through this policy.
Keep in mind that the policy is going to be done through human implementation with the specific intention of avoiding inconveniently broad interpretations like this.
It’s not enough to show that the censorship policy could theoretically be used to stifle conversation we actually want here, the important question is whether it actually would be.
I think that’s a very dangerous idea. This community is about developing FAI. FAI should be expected to act according to the rules that you give it. I think the policy should be judged by the way it would actually work if it would be applied as it’s proposed.
There also the problem of encouraging group think: Advocating of illegal conduct gets censored when it goes against the morality of this group but is allowed when it’s within the realms of that morality is bad.
This community should have consistent rules about which discussions are allowed and which aren’t. Censoring on a case by case is problematic.
If you start censoring certain speech that advocates violence and avoid censoring other speech that advocates violence you also have the problem that you get more responsibility for the speech that you allow.
In the absence of a censorship policy you don’t endorse a viewpoint by not censoring the viewpoint. If you however do censor, and you do make decisions not to censor specific speech that’s an endorsement of that speech.
The way it’s proposed is to be applied according to the judgment of a moderator. It makes no sense to pretend that we’re beholden to the strictest letter of the rule when that’s not how it’s actually going to work.
What speech that advocates violence do you think would get a pass while the rest would get censored?
I don’t know excatly how much speech Eliezier wants to censor. I wrote a post with a bunch of examples. I would like to see with of those example Eliezer considers worthy of censorship.
Please explain. (I’ve heard this argued before, but I’m curious what your particular angle on it is)
He is probably pattern-matching “fundamental civil liberties” to Natural Rights, which are not taken very seriously around these parts, since they are mostly myth.