Bostrom argues that much of human art, etc. is actually just signalling wealth, and could be eventually replaced with auditing. But that seems possible at the moment—why don’t men trying to attract women just show off the Ernst&Young Ap on their phone, which would vouch for their wealth, fitness, social skills etc.?
Good question. One answer sometimes given to why men don’t woo women with their bank statement or the like is that it is just hard to move from one equilibrium to another, because being the first man to try to woo a woman with his bank statement looks weird, and looking weird sends a bad signal.
Another thing to notice—which I’m not sure we have a good explanation for—is that people often do what I think is sometimes called ‘multimodal signaling’ - they signal the same thing in lots of different ways. For instance, instead of spending all their money on the most expensive car they can get, they spend some on a moderately expensive suit, and some on a nice house, etc.
The idea that what a man is trying to signal is wealth is false for reasons similar to Homo Economicus being a false analogy. A view a little closer to the truth (but still far from the socioendocrinological awesomeness involved) is here.
For some reason these discussions are always emotionally abhorrent to me. I’ve been among rich people all my life, so it’s not related to being rich or poor. I just find it disgusting and morally outrageous that people even consider saying that what a man has to offer a woman is the extension of his bank account. It’s a deflationary account of the beauty of courtship, love, romance and even parenting beyond my wildest dreams. I don’t understand to what extent people in internet discussions like this really mean it when they say that what is being signaled could be substituted by auditing, but if that is truly what people mean, it is a sad mindstate to be in, to think that the World works that way.
Glad you mentioned this. I find Bostrom’s reduction of art to the practical quite chilling! This sounds like a view of art from the perspective of a machine, or one who cannot feel. In fact it’s the first time I’ve ever heard art described this way. Yes, such an entity (I wouldn’t call them a person unless they are perhaps autistic) could only see UTILITY in art. According to my best definition of art [https://sites.google.com/site/relationalart/Home] –refined over a lifetime as a professional artist–art is necessarily anti-utilitarian. Perhaps I can’t see “utility” in art because that aspect is so thoroughly dwarfed by art’s monumental gifts of wonder, humor, pathos, depth, meaning, transformative alchemy, emotional uplift, spiritual renewal, etc. This entire catalog of wonders would be totally worthless to AI, which would prefer an endless grey jungle of straight lines.
such an entity [...] could only see UTILITY in art
I think you may be interpreting “utility” more narrowly than is customary here. The usual usage here is that “utility” is a catch-all term for everything one values. So if art provides me with wonder and humour and pathos and I value those (which, as it happens, it does and I do) then that’s positive utility for me. If art provides other people with wonder and humour and pathos and they like that and I want them to be happy (which, as it happens, it does and they do and I do) then that too is positive utility. If it provides other people with those things and it makes them better people and I care about that (which it does, and maybe it does, and I do) then that too is positive utility.
would be totally worthless to AI
To an AI that doesn’t care about those things, yes. To an AI that cares about those things, no. There’s no reason why an AI shouldn’t care about them. Of course at the moment we don’t understand them, or our reactions to them, well enough to make an AI that cares about them. But then, we can’t make an AI that recognizes ducks very well either.
An AI that could just play with it’s own reward circuitry might decide to prefer things it will frequently encounter without effort. Not necessarily grey straight lines, which are absent in my field of vision at the moment, but easygoing, laidback stuff.
Because appreciating art/expensive win/whatever not only signals money but also culture. Saying “I have lots of money, here’s my bank statement” isn’t very subtle, and so signals low social skills.
Bostrom argues that much of human art, etc. is actually just signalling wealth, and could be eventually replaced with auditing. But that seems possible at the moment—why don’t men trying to attract women just show off the Ernst&Young Ap on their phone, which would vouch for their wealth, fitness, social skills etc.?
Good question. One answer sometimes given to why men don’t woo women with their bank statement or the like is that it is just hard to move from one equilibrium to another, because being the first man to try to woo a woman with his bank statement looks weird, and looking weird sends a bad signal.
Another thing to notice—which I’m not sure we have a good explanation for—is that people often do what I think is sometimes called ‘multimodal signaling’ - they signal the same thing in lots of different ways. For instance, instead of spending all their money on the most expensive car they can get, they spend some on a moderately expensive suit, and some on a nice house, etc.
The idea that what a man is trying to signal is wealth is false for reasons similar to Homo Economicus being a false analogy. A view a little closer to the truth (but still far from the socioendocrinological awesomeness involved) is here.
For some reason these discussions are always emotionally abhorrent to me. I’ve been among rich people all my life, so it’s not related to being rich or poor. I just find it disgusting and morally outrageous that people even consider saying that what a man has to offer a woman is the extension of his bank account. It’s a deflationary account of the beauty of courtship, love, romance and even parenting beyond my wildest dreams. I don’t understand to what extent people in internet discussions like this really mean it when they say that what is being signaled could be substituted by auditing, but if that is truly what people mean, it is a sad mindstate to be in, to think that the World works that way.
Glad you mentioned this. I find Bostrom’s reduction of art to the practical quite chilling! This sounds like a view of art from the perspective of a machine, or one who cannot feel. In fact it’s the first time I’ve ever heard art described this way. Yes, such an entity (I wouldn’t call them a person unless they are perhaps autistic) could only see UTILITY in art. According to my best definition of art [https://sites.google.com/site/relationalart/Home] –refined over a lifetime as a professional artist–art is necessarily anti-utilitarian. Perhaps I can’t see “utility” in art because that aspect is so thoroughly dwarfed by art’s monumental gifts of wonder, humor, pathos, depth, meaning, transformative alchemy, emotional uplift, spiritual renewal, etc. This entire catalog of wonders would be totally worthless to AI, which would prefer an endless grey jungle of straight lines.
I think you may be interpreting “utility” more narrowly than is customary here. The usual usage here is that “utility” is a catch-all term for everything one values. So if art provides me with wonder and humour and pathos and I value those (which, as it happens, it does and I do) then that’s positive utility for me. If art provides other people with wonder and humour and pathos and they like that and I want them to be happy (which, as it happens, it does and they do and I do) then that too is positive utility. If it provides other people with those things and it makes them better people and I care about that (which it does, and maybe it does, and I do) then that too is positive utility.
To an AI that doesn’t care about those things, yes. To an AI that cares about those things, no. There’s no reason why an AI shouldn’t care about them. Of course at the moment we don’t understand them, or our reactions to them, well enough to make an AI that cares about them. But then, we can’t make an AI that recognizes ducks very well either.
Why do you suppose an AI would tend to prefer grey straight lines?
An AI that could just play with it’s own reward circuitry might decide to prefer things it will frequently encounter without effort. Not necessarily grey straight lines, which are absent in my field of vision at the moment, but easygoing, laidback stuff.
Because appreciating art/expensive win/whatever not only signals money but also culture. Saying “I have lots of money, here’s my bank statement” isn’t very subtle, and so signals low social skills.