I think that your edit clarified things for me substantially. I read the entire article that you linked. I regret my earlier post for reasons that you will hopefully see.
I have a relevant anecdote about a simpler situation. I was with two friends. The One thought that it would be preferable for there to be less and/or simpler technology in the world, and the Other thought that the opposite was true. The One believed that technology causes people to live meaningless lives, and the Other conceded that he believed this to be true but also believed that technology has so many other benefits that this is acceptable. The One would always cite examples of how technology was used for entertainment, and the Other, examples of how technology was used for work. I stepped in and pointed out the patterns in their respective examples. I said that there were times when I had wasted time by using technology. I pointed out that if a person were like the One, and thus felt that they were leading a less meaningful life by the use of technology, then they should stop. It would be harmful were I to prescribe that a person like the One indiscriminately use technology. I then said that, through technology, I was able to meet people similar to me, people whom I would be far less likely to meet in physical life, and with whom I could hold conversations that I could not hold in physical life. In this way, my life had been made more meaningful by technology. And so it would be harmful for someone to prescribe that I indiscriminately do not use technology.
I definitely did not consider this enough in my original response to you, and I apologize. Just like it is not a matter of less technology vs. more technology, it is not necessarily a matter of ‘Keep your old life,’ vs. ‘Start a new life.’ Honestly, your ‘vague tentative plans’ sound like potential third alternatives. I would say keep thinking about those, and also feel good for thinking of and about them. I’d love to hear about them, however vague and tentative. Vaniver touched on this. I would say that he found a third alternative in his own life. I’m bisexual; in physical life, I’m selective about whom I tell, and I don’t feel outraged that this is pragmatic or feel inauthentic for doing it. Others would feel like they were in a prison of their own making. I picked the best alternative that I could live with.
There are people who feel like their skin is on wrong when they use technology that they consider undesirably advanced. I love technology. The One thought that people who used technology were suffering from a sense of meaninglessness, and they were simply unaware of this, or actively ignoring it. This was not true for me: Technology makes my life more meaningful. For either of us to act otherwise would be for us to act against our preferences. Likewise, it may have been more important for Shulem to act authentically than it was for him to keep his social relationships. Maryles had a sneaking suspicion that this is false. Yet, Shulem may really be more lonely and really not regret it.
People value other things besides happiness. The One saw that some people were happy playing mobile games all of the time, their reward centers firing away, but didn’t think that it was worth it because their happiness was meaningless. The One valued meaning more than entertainment, and perhaps even more than happiness in general. People forget this easily. I see this in the article when Maryles says:
Not that I have a right to tell people how to live their lives. I just wish that he would have made choices that would have kept his family intact, and given him a better more meaningful life. Shulem says that he has no regrets. And yet I wonder if he has had similar thoughts? So I am sad for Shulem who still seems to live a very lonely life. I am sad for his children who lost a father they once loved. And yet I am hopeful that those with similar leanings that read his book will realize that the kind of radical change Shulem Deen made- even as he felt it was the right one based on being true to oneself -may not be the best solution for individual happiness.
He wishes that Shulem had made decisions to give himself a more meaningful life. He wishes that Shulem had made decisions to give himself a happier life. He wishes that Shulem had made decisions to give himself a less lonely life. He thinks that, ultimately, Shulem has made decisions to give himself a more authentic life at the price of forgoing these other possibilities. About this, he may be right. Another possibility is that there was no more preferable alternative. Maryles suggests otherwise: He seems to think either that authenticity, meaning, community, and happiness are all the same; or that all are reducible to one; or that all necessarily follow from one. I cannot glean which he believes from context. It is entirely possible that Shulem feels that his life is less happy, less meaningful, more lonely, and more authentic, and that he prefers all and regrets none of this. On the other hand, you, it seems, would not prefer this and would regret this, because you are not typical, as said above. I keep the complexity of value in mind when evaluating potential third alternatives.
Lastly, because things are often about that which they explicitly are not, I feel obliged to touch on this:
I was sad not so much about his erroneous (in my view) conclusions about God and Judaism. Although I am in no way minimizing the importance of that—this post isn’t about that.
If this is true, then ‘The Lonely Man of No Faith’ is a bad title, in the sense that it isn’t representative of the article’s implication. (It does, however, make for excellent link bait.) No one is thinking, “Surely his lack of faith is merely a coincidence. There must be other reasons that this man is lonely.” Maryles has to say that the post is not about ‘that’ precisely because everyone has assumed that it’s about that.
The general implication is that the so-called truth-seekers are worse off even though the opposite should be true. On this, I will say that any time that I have seen someone become less satisfied with their life by reading about the sorts of things that are posted here, it’s because they have experienced a failure of imagination, or their new beliefs have not fully propagated. The failure modes that I’ve seen the most are:
Reductionism implies existential nihilism. (“Magical processes are really natural processes of such complexity that I mistook them for magical processes? I live for nothing!”)
Determinism implies fatalism. (“Things can only go one way, therefore, I should not make decisions.”)
Representing truth values with probabilities rather than with Boolean values implies epistemological nihilism. (“I can’t know things for sure, so I should stop trying to know things.”)
You’ve given no indication that you believe any of these things, but I had to address that because of the article’s implication, and you or others very well may believe these things, explicitly or implicitly, without indication. You identify as an open-minded person; you seem to take pride in it. As such, you may not really believe that there is no God; rather, you might believe that you ought to believe that there is no God, because perhaps that is what you believe open-minded people do, and you want to do what open-minded people do. (I had this very problem. Belief in belief goes both ways!) Saying that one atheist is less happy because he has been separated from his loved ones is very different from saying that atheists are universally dissatisfied because theism is essentially preferable. Though the author attempts to make that distinction, I think that he fails.
I’m also not saying that I deductively concluded that truth-seeking is preferable to ignorance. I inductively concluded it. Truth-seeking could have been horrible: It turns out it generally isn’t.
The general implication is that the so-called truth-seekers are worse off even though the opposite should be true.
The opposite should be true for a rational agent, but humans aren’t rational agents, and may or may not benefit from false beliefs. There is some evidence that religion could be beneficial for humans while being completely and utterly false:
Of course, this is not “checkmate, atheists”, and doesn’t mean we should all convert to Christianity. There are ways to mitigate the negative impact of false beliefs while preserving the benefits of letting the wiring of the brain do what it wants to do. Unitarian Universalists from the religious side, and Raemon’s Solstice from the atheist side are trying to approach this nice zone with the amount of epistemological symbolism and rituals optimal for real humans, until we found a way to rewire everyone. But in general, unless you value truth for its own sake, you may be better off in life with certain false beliefs.
Good point, maxikov. I agree that instrumental rationality > epistemic rationality once you have enough epistemic rationality to understand why and not have it backfire and inadvertently make you less rational in both senses. As I said before, life is always lived in practice.
Thanks, Torello. Like many good things, they’re really short and sweet summaries of things that Eliezer and others have been saying for years. The list is by no means exhaustive. I’m not very far into the Sequences, and this is just what I’ve pieced together, so someone else would probably be able to point you to relevant LW posts. I know far less than I appear to know.
I haven’t read it, but my guess is that Gary Drescher’s Good and Real: Demystifying Paradoxes from Physics to Ethics would be what you’re looking for. I know for a fact that it explains why no absolute morality != moral relativism or moral nihilism, and why determinism != fatalism. As for the second, from what I understand, reductionism is the key to solving most of our Old Hard Unsolved Problems, so he’ll talk about that, but I don’t know if he’ll talk about people weirdly losing all hope when they see that reductionism is the way to go. I don’t know about the fourth item, but I don’t see Drescher successfully avoiding it. The fifth item in the list probably did not merit discussion in Drescher’s book.
I don’t think it merits its own post, even in discussion. It’s not really novel here, except perhaps in presentation.
I think that your edit clarified things for me substantially. I read the entire article that you linked. I regret my earlier post for reasons that you will hopefully see.
I have a relevant anecdote about a simpler situation. I was with two friends. The One thought that it would be preferable for there to be less and/or simpler technology in the world, and the Other thought that the opposite was true. The One believed that technology causes people to live meaningless lives, and the Other conceded that he believed this to be true but also believed that technology has so many other benefits that this is acceptable. The One would always cite examples of how technology was used for entertainment, and the Other, examples of how technology was used for work. I stepped in and pointed out the patterns in their respective examples. I said that there were times when I had wasted time by using technology. I pointed out that if a person were like the One, and thus felt that they were leading a less meaningful life by the use of technology, then they should stop. It would be harmful were I to prescribe that a person like the One indiscriminately use technology. I then said that, through technology, I was able to meet people similar to me, people whom I would be far less likely to meet in physical life, and with whom I could hold conversations that I could not hold in physical life. In this way, my life had been made more meaningful by technology. And so it would be harmful for someone to prescribe that I indiscriminately do not use technology.
I learned three things from this event:
1) I should look for third alternatives.
I definitely did not consider this enough in my original response to you, and I apologize. Just like it is not a matter of less technology vs. more technology, it is not necessarily a matter of ‘Keep your old life,’ vs. ‘Start a new life.’ Honestly, your ‘vague tentative plans’ sound like potential third alternatives. I would say keep thinking about those, and also feel good for thinking of and about them. I’d love to hear about them, however vague and tentative. Vaniver touched on this. I would say that he found a third alternative in his own life. I’m bisexual; in physical life, I’m selective about whom I tell, and I don’t feel outraged that this is pragmatic or feel inauthentic for doing it. Others would feel like they were in a prison of their own making. I picked the best alternative that I could live with.
2) I should remember that humans are never ‘typical.’
There are people who feel like their skin is on wrong when they use technology that they consider undesirably advanced. I love technology. The One thought that people who used technology were suffering from a sense of meaninglessness, and they were simply unaware of this, or actively ignoring it. This was not true for me: Technology makes my life more meaningful. For either of us to act otherwise would be for us to act against our preferences. Likewise, it may have been more important for Shulem to act authentically than it was for him to keep his social relationships. Maryles had a sneaking suspicion that this is false. Yet, Shulem may really be more lonely and really not regret it.
3) I should remember that humans do things for more than just happiness.
People value other things besides happiness. The One saw that some people were happy playing mobile games all of the time, their reward centers firing away, but didn’t think that it was worth it because their happiness was meaningless. The One valued meaning more than entertainment, and perhaps even more than happiness in general. People forget this easily. I see this in the article when Maryles says:
He wishes that Shulem had made decisions to give himself a more meaningful life. He wishes that Shulem had made decisions to give himself a happier life. He wishes that Shulem had made decisions to give himself a less lonely life. He thinks that, ultimately, Shulem has made decisions to give himself a more authentic life at the price of forgoing these other possibilities. About this, he may be right. Another possibility is that there was no more preferable alternative. Maryles suggests otherwise: He seems to think either that authenticity, meaning, community, and happiness are all the same; or that all are reducible to one; or that all necessarily follow from one. I cannot glean which he believes from context. It is entirely possible that Shulem feels that his life is less happy, less meaningful, more lonely, and more authentic, and that he prefers all and regrets none of this. On the other hand, you, it seems, would not prefer this and would regret this, because you are not typical, as said above. I keep the complexity of value in mind when evaluating potential third alternatives.
Lastly, because things are often about that which they explicitly are not, I feel obliged to touch on this:
If this is true, then ‘The Lonely Man of No Faith’ is a bad title, in the sense that it isn’t representative of the article’s implication. (It does, however, make for excellent link bait.) No one is thinking, “Surely his lack of faith is merely a coincidence. There must be other reasons that this man is lonely.” Maryles has to say that the post is not about ‘that’ precisely because everyone has assumed that it’s about that.
The general implication is that the so-called truth-seekers are worse off even though the opposite should be true. On this, I will say that any time that I have seen someone become less satisfied with their life by reading about the sorts of things that are posted here, it’s because they have experienced a failure of imagination, or their new beliefs have not fully propagated. The failure modes that I’ve seen the most are:
No absolute morality implies moral relativism or moral nihilism. (“Actions are not intrinsically good or bad, therefore, morality is open season or meaningless.”)
Reductionism implies existential nihilism. (“Magical processes are really natural processes of such complexity that I mistook them for magical processes? I live for nothing!”)
Determinism implies fatalism. (“Things can only go one way, therefore, I should not make decisions.”)
Representing truth values with probabilities rather than with Boolean values implies epistemological nihilism. (“I can’t know things for sure, so I should stop trying to know things.”)
The lack of sensation after death is equivalent to a sensation of darkness and silence of infinite duration). (“I know that you’re saying ‘no experience,’ but I feel like you’re saying ‘one of the worst experiences that I can possibly imagine.’”)
You’ve given no indication that you believe any of these things, but I had to address that because of the article’s implication, and you or others very well may believe these things, explicitly or implicitly, without indication. You identify as an open-minded person; you seem to take pride in it. As such, you may not really believe that there is no God; rather, you might believe that you ought to believe that there is no God, because perhaps that is what you believe open-minded people do, and you want to do what open-minded people do. (I had this very problem. Belief in belief goes both ways!) Saying that one atheist is less happy because he has been separated from his loved ones is very different from saying that atheists are universally dissatisfied because theism is essentially preferable. Though the author attempts to make that distinction, I think that he fails.
I’m also not saying that I deductively concluded that truth-seeking is preferable to ignorance. I inductively concluded it. Truth-seeking could have been horrible: It turns out it generally isn’t.
The opposite should be true for a rational agent, but humans aren’t rational agents, and may or may not benefit from false beliefs. There is some evidence that religion could be beneficial for humans while being completely and utterly false:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/2153599X.2011.647849
http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Folly/NewSciGod/De%20Botton.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361002/
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0003679
Of course, this is not “checkmate, atheists”, and doesn’t mean we should all convert to Christianity. There are ways to mitigate the negative impact of false beliefs while preserving the benefits of letting the wiring of the brain do what it wants to do. Unitarian Universalists from the religious side, and Raemon’s Solstice from the atheist side are trying to approach this nice zone with the amount of epistemological symbolism and rituals optimal for real humans, until we found a way to rewire everyone. But in general, unless you value truth for its own sake, you may be better off in life with certain false beliefs.
Good point, maxikov. I agree that instrumental rationality > epistemic rationality once you have enough epistemic rationality to understand why and not have it backfire and inadvertently make you less rational in both senses. As I said before, life is always lived in practice.
Your discussion of failure modes at the bottom of this comment is excellent.
Do you have any recommend books or articles on the topic?
Has there already been a post about these failure modes on the main page? If not, please expand this into a main post.
Too all other readers, please feel free to share books or articles on the topic.
Thanks, Torello. Like many good things, they’re really short and sweet summaries of things that Eliezer and others have been saying for years. The list is by no means exhaustive. I’m not very far into the Sequences, and this is just what I’ve pieced together, so someone else would probably be able to point you to relevant LW posts. I know far less than I appear to know.
I haven’t read it, but my guess is that Gary Drescher’s Good and Real: Demystifying Paradoxes from Physics to Ethics would be what you’re looking for. I know for a fact that it explains why no absolute morality != moral relativism or moral nihilism, and why determinism != fatalism. As for the second, from what I understand, reductionism is the key to solving most of our Old Hard Unsolved Problems, so he’ll talk about that, but I don’t know if he’ll talk about people weirdly losing all hope when they see that reductionism is the way to go. I don’t know about the fourth item, but I don’t see Drescher successfully avoiding it. The fifth item in the list probably did not merit discussion in Drescher’s book.
I don’t think it merits its own post, even in discussion. It’s not really novel here, except perhaps in presentation.