Not sure what kind of cognitive capacity the dinosaurs held...
At least they probably hadn’t a deceptive cognitive capacity. That is, they had few beliefs, but that few were more or less correct. I am not saying that an intelligent species is universally better at survival than a dumb species. I said that of two almost identical species with same quantity of cognition (measured by brain size or better its energy consumption or number of distinct beliefs held) which differ only in quality of cognition (i.e. correspondence of beliefs and reality), the one which is easy deluded is in a clear disadvantage.
How do you expect to recognise the former, those whose consciousness is not biologically determined?
Well, what I know about nature indicates that any physical system evolves in time respecting rigid deterministic physical laws. There is no strong evidence that living creatures form an exception. Therefore I conclude that consciousness must be physically and therefore bilogically determined. I don’t expect to recognise “deterministic creatures” from “non-determinist creatures”, I simply expect the latter can’t exist in this world. Or maybe I even can’t imagine what could it possibly mean for consciousness to be not biologically determined. From my point of view, it could mean either a very bizarre form of dualism (consciousness is separated from the material world, but by chance it reflects correctly what happens in the material world), or it could mean that the natural laws aren’t entirely deterministic. But I don’t call the latter possibility “free will”, I call it “randomness”.
Your line of thought reminds me of a class of apologetics which claim that if we have evolved by random chance, then there is no guarantee that our cognition is correct, and if our cognition is flawed, we are not able to recognise that we have evolved by random chance; therefore, holding a position that we have evolved by random chance is incoherent and God must have been involved in the process. I think this class of arguments is called “presuppositionalist”, but I may be wrong.
Whatever is the name, the argument is a fallacy. That our cognition is correct is an assumption we must take, otherwise we may better not argue about anything. Although a carefully designed cognitive algorithm may have better chances to work correctly than by chance evolved cognitive algorithm, i.e. it is acceptable that p(correct|evolved)<p(correct|designed), it doesn’t necessarily mean that p(evolved|correct)<p(designed|correct), which is the conclusion the presuppositionalists essentially make.
Back to your argument, you seem to implicitly hold about cognition that p(correct|deterministic)<p(correct|indeterministic), for which I can’t see any reason, but even if that is valid, it isn’t automatically a strong argument for indeterminism.
I said that of two almost identical species with same quantity of cognition (measured by brain size or better its energy consumption or number of distinct beliefs held) which differ only in quality of cognition (i.e. correspondence of beliefs and reality), the one which is easy deluded is in a clear disadvantage.
Unless the delusions are related to survival and procreation, don’t see how they would present any evolutionary disadvantage.
Well, what I know about nature indicates that any physical system evolves in time respecting rigid deterministic physical laws. There is no strong evidence that living creatures form an exception.
Actually there is plenty of evidence to show that living creatures require additional laws to be predicted. Darwinian evolution itself is not required to describe the physical world. However what you probably meant was that there is no evidence that living creatures violate any physical laws, meaning laws governing the living are potentially reducible to physical laws. Someone else looking at the exact same evidence, can come to an entirely different conclusion, that we are actually on the verge of demonstrating what we always felt, that the living are more than physics. Both the positions are based on something that has not yet been demonstrated, the only “evidence” for either lying with the individual, a case of generalisation from one example.
Back to your argument, you seem to implicitly hold about cognition that p(correct|deterministic)<p(correct|indeterministic),...
Not at all. I was only questioning the logical consistency of an approach called ‘determinist consequentialism’. Determinism implies a future that is predetermined and potentially predictable. Consequentialism would require a future that is not predetermined and dependent on choices that we make now either because of a ‘free will’ or ‘randomness’.
Unless the delusions are related to survival and procreation, don’t see how they would present any evolutionary disadvantage.
Forming and holding any belief is costly. The time and energy you spend forming delusions can be used elsewhere.
Actually there is plenty of evidence to show that living creatures require additional laws to be predicted.
An example would be helpful. I don’t know what evidence you are speaking about.
However what you probably meant was that there is no evidence that living creatures violate any physical laws, meaning laws governing the living are potentially reducible to physical laws.
What is the difference between respecting physical laws and not violating them? Physical laws (and I am speaking mainly about the microscopical ones) determine the time evolution uniquely. Once you know the initial state in all detail, the future is logically fixed, there is no freedom for additional laws. That of course doesn’t mean that the predictions of future are practically feasible or even easy.
Consequentialism would require a future that is not predetermined and dependent on choices that we make now either because of a ‘free will’ or ‘randomness’.
Consequentialism doesn’t require either. The choices needn’t be principially unpredictable to be meaningful.
Forming and holding any belief is costly. The time and energy you spend forming delusions can be used elsewhere.
Perhaps. But do not see why that should present an evolutionary disadvantage if they do not impact survival and procreation. On the contrary it could present an evolutionary adavantage. A species that deluded itself inot believing that its has been the chosen species, might actually work energetically towards establshing its hegemony and gain an evolutionary advantage.
An example would be helpful. I don’t know what evidence you are speaking about.
The evidence was stated in the very next line, the Darwinian evolution, something that is not required to describe the evolution of non-biological systems.
What is the difference between respecting physical laws and not violating them?
Of course, none. The distinction I wanted to make was one between respecting/not-violating and being completely determined by.
Physical laws (and I am speaking mainly about the microscopical ones) determine the time evolution uniquely. Once you know the initial state in all detail, the future is logically fixed, there is no freedom for additional laws. That of course doesn’t mean that the predictions of future are practically feasible or even easy.
Nothing to differ there as a definition of determinism. It was exactly the point I was making too. If biological systems are, like us, are completely determined by physical laws, the apparent choice of making a decision by considering consequences is itself an illusion.
Consequentialism doesn’t require either. The choices needn’t be principially unpredictable to be meaningful.
In which case every choice every entity makes, regardless of how it arrives at it, is meaningful. In other words there are no meaningless choices in the real world.
But do not see why that should present an evolutionary disadvantage if they do not impact survival and procreation.
Large useless brain consumes a lot of energy, which means more dangerous hunting and faster consumption of supplies when food is insufficient. The relation to survival is straightforward.
A species that deluded itself inot believing that its has been the chosen species, might actually work energetically towards establshing its hegemony and gain an evolutionary advantage.
Sounds like a groupselection to me. And not much in accordance with observation. Although I don’t believe the Jews believe in their chosenness on genetical grounds, even if they did, they aren’t much sucessful after all.
the Darwinian evolution, something that is not required to describe the evolution of non-biological systems.
Depends on interpretation of “required”. If it means that practically one cannot derive useful statements about trilobites from Schrödinger equation, then yes, I agree. If it means that laws of evolution are logically independent laws which we would need to keep even if we overcome all computational and data-storage difficulties, then I disagree. I expect you meant the first interpretation, given your last paragraph.
Large useless brain consumes a lot of energy, which means more dangerous hunting and faster consumption of supplies when food is insufficient. The relation to survival is straightforward.
Peacock tails reduce their survival chances. Even so peacocks are around. As long as the organism survives until it is capable of procreation, any survival disadvantages don’t pose an evolutionary disadvantage.
Sounds like a group selection to me. And not much in accordance with observation.
I am more inclined towards the gene selection theory, not group selection. About the only species whose delusions we can observe are ourselves. So it is difficult to come out wth any significant objective observational data.
Although I don’t believe the Jews believe in their chosenness on genetical grounds, even if they did, they aren’t much sucessful after all.
I didn’t mean Jews, I meant human species. If delusions are not genetically determined, what would be their source, from a deterministic point of view?
Peacock tails reduce their survival chances. Even so peacocks are around. As long as the organism survives until it is capable of procreation, any survival disadvantages don’t pose an evolutionary disadvantage.
Peacock tail survival disadvantage isn’t limited to post-reproduction period. In order to explain the existence of the tails, it must be shown that their positive effect is greater than the negative.
I don’t dispute that (probably large) part of the human brain’s capacity is used in the peacock-tail manner as a signal of fitness. What I say is only that having two brains of same energetic demands, the one with more correct cognition is in advantage; their signalling value is the same, so any peacock mechanism shouldn’t favour the deluded one.
This doesn’t constitute proof of the correctness of human cognition, perhaps (almost certainly) some parts of our brain’s design is wrong in a way that no single mutation can repair, like the blind spot on human retina. But the evolutionary argument for correctness can’t be dismissed as irrelevant.
If delusions presented only survival dsiadvantages and no advantages, you are right. However, that need not be the case.
The delusion about an afterlife can co-exist with correct cognition in matters affecting immediate survival and when it does, it can enhance survival chances. So evolution doesn’t automatically lead to/enhance correct cognition. I am not saying correctness plays no role, but isn’t the sole deciding factor, at least not in the case of evolutionary selection.
Consequentialism would require a future that is not predetermined and dependent on choices that we make now either because of a ‘free will’ or ‘randomness’.
At least they probably hadn’t a deceptive cognitive capacity. That is, they had few beliefs, but that few were more or less correct. I am not saying that an intelligent species is universally better at survival than a dumb species. I said that of two almost identical species with same quantity of cognition (measured by brain size or better its energy consumption or number of distinct beliefs held) which differ only in quality of cognition (i.e. correspondence of beliefs and reality), the one which is easy deluded is in a clear disadvantage.
Well, what I know about nature indicates that any physical system evolves in time respecting rigid deterministic physical laws. There is no strong evidence that living creatures form an exception. Therefore I conclude that consciousness must be physically and therefore bilogically determined. I don’t expect to recognise “deterministic creatures” from “non-determinist creatures”, I simply expect the latter can’t exist in this world. Or maybe I even can’t imagine what could it possibly mean for consciousness to be not biologically determined. From my point of view, it could mean either a very bizarre form of dualism (consciousness is separated from the material world, but by chance it reflects correctly what happens in the material world), or it could mean that the natural laws aren’t entirely deterministic. But I don’t call the latter possibility “free will”, I call it “randomness”.
Your line of thought reminds me of a class of apologetics which claim that if we have evolved by random chance, then there is no guarantee that our cognition is correct, and if our cognition is flawed, we are not able to recognise that we have evolved by random chance; therefore, holding a position that we have evolved by random chance is incoherent and God must have been involved in the process. I think this class of arguments is called “presuppositionalist”, but I may be wrong.
Whatever is the name, the argument is a fallacy. That our cognition is correct is an assumption we must take, otherwise we may better not argue about anything. Although a carefully designed cognitive algorithm may have better chances to work correctly than by chance evolved cognitive algorithm, i.e. it is acceptable that p(correct|evolved)<p(correct|designed), it doesn’t necessarily mean that p(evolved|correct)<p(designed|correct), which is the conclusion the presuppositionalists essentially make.
Back to your argument, you seem to implicitly hold about cognition that p(correct|deterministic)<p(correct|indeterministic), for which I can’t see any reason, but even if that is valid, it isn’t automatically a strong argument for indeterminism.
Unless the delusions are related to survival and procreation, don’t see how they would present any evolutionary disadvantage.
Actually there is plenty of evidence to show that living creatures require additional laws to be predicted. Darwinian evolution itself is not required to describe the physical world. However what you probably meant was that there is no evidence that living creatures violate any physical laws, meaning laws governing the living are potentially reducible to physical laws. Someone else looking at the exact same evidence, can come to an entirely different conclusion, that we are actually on the verge of demonstrating what we always felt, that the living are more than physics. Both the positions are based on something that has not yet been demonstrated, the only “evidence” for either lying with the individual, a case of generalisation from one example.
Not at all. I was only questioning the logical consistency of an approach called ‘determinist consequentialism’. Determinism implies a future that is predetermined and potentially predictable. Consequentialism would require a future that is not predetermined and dependent on choices that we make now either because of a ‘free will’ or ‘randomness’.
Forming and holding any belief is costly. The time and energy you spend forming delusions can be used elsewhere.
An example would be helpful. I don’t know what evidence you are speaking about.
What is the difference between respecting physical laws and not violating them? Physical laws (and I am speaking mainly about the microscopical ones) determine the time evolution uniquely. Once you know the initial state in all detail, the future is logically fixed, there is no freedom for additional laws. That of course doesn’t mean that the predictions of future are practically feasible or even easy.
Consequentialism doesn’t require either. The choices needn’t be principially unpredictable to be meaningful.
Perhaps. But do not see why that should present an evolutionary disadvantage if they do not impact survival and procreation. On the contrary it could present an evolutionary adavantage. A species that deluded itself inot believing that its has been the chosen species, might actually work energetically towards establshing its hegemony and gain an evolutionary advantage.
The evidence was stated in the very next line, the Darwinian evolution, something that is not required to describe the evolution of non-biological systems.
Of course, none. The distinction I wanted to make was one between respecting/not-violating and being completely determined by.
Nothing to differ there as a definition of determinism. It was exactly the point I was making too. If biological systems are, like us, are completely determined by physical laws, the apparent choice of making a decision by considering consequences is itself an illusion.
In which case every choice every entity makes, regardless of how it arrives at it, is meaningful. In other words there are no meaningless choices in the real world.
Large useless brain consumes a lot of energy, which means more dangerous hunting and faster consumption of supplies when food is insufficient. The relation to survival is straightforward.
Sounds like a group selection to me. And not much in accordance with observation. Although I don’t believe the Jews believe in their chosenness on genetical grounds, even if they did, they aren’t much sucessful after all.
Depends on interpretation of “required”. If it means that practically one cannot derive useful statements about trilobites from Schrödinger equation, then yes, I agree. If it means that laws of evolution are logically independent laws which we would need to keep even if we overcome all computational and data-storage difficulties, then I disagree. I expect you meant the first interpretation, given your last paragraph.
Peacock tails reduce their survival chances. Even so peacocks are around. As long as the organism survives until it is capable of procreation, any survival disadvantages don’t pose an evolutionary disadvantage.
I am more inclined towards the gene selection theory, not group selection. About the only species whose delusions we can observe are ourselves. So it is difficult to come out wth any significant objective observational data.
I didn’t mean Jews, I meant human species. If delusions are not genetically determined, what would be their source, from a deterministic point of view?
Peacock tail survival disadvantage isn’t limited to post-reproduction period. In order to explain the existence of the tails, it must be shown that their positive effect is greater than the negative.
I don’t dispute that (probably large) part of the human brain’s capacity is used in the peacock-tail manner as a signal of fitness. What I say is only that having two brains of same energetic demands, the one with more correct cognition is in advantage; their signalling value is the same, so any peacock mechanism shouldn’t favour the deluded one.
This doesn’t constitute proof of the correctness of human cognition, perhaps (almost certainly) some parts of our brain’s design is wrong in a way that no single mutation can repair, like the blind spot on human retina. But the evolutionary argument for correctness can’t be dismissed as irrelevant.
If delusions presented only survival dsiadvantages and no advantages, you are right. However, that need not be the case.
The delusion about an afterlife can co-exist with correct cognition in matters affecting immediate survival and when it does, it can enhance survival chances. So evolution doesn’t automatically lead to/enhance correct cognition. I am not saying correctness plays no role, but isn’t the sole deciding factor, at least not in the case of evolutionary selection.
This post is relevant.