“the rest of the post doesn’t seem to support the idea that we desire things other than pleasure.”
I think it does, depending of how you interpret the word “desire”. Suppose I’m a smoker who is trying to quit—I don’t like smoking at all anymore, I hate it—but I am still driven to do it, because I simply can’t resist… it’s wanting without liking.
So in a sense this example clearly demonstrates, that people are driven by other urges that can be completely divorced from hedonic concerns—which is the whole point of this topic. This seems to be entirely true, so there definitely is an insight to be had here for someone who may have thought otherwise until now.
I think the key to this “but does it really make a sound”-misunderstanding resides within the word “desire” . Do I “desire” to smoke when I actually dislike doing it?
It depends entirely what you mean by “desire”. Because “wanting” and “liking” usually occur simultaneously, some people will interpret the word desire more into the direction of “wanting”, while in other people’s brains it may be associated more with the concept of “liking”.
So what are we even talking about here? If I understood your viewpoint correctly, you’d agree with me that doing something we only “want” but don’t “like” is a waste of time. We may be hardwired to do it, but if there is no gain in pleasure either directly or indirectly from such behavior, it’s a waste of time and not desirable.
What about the concept of learning? What about instances where learning isn’t associated with gain in pleasure at all (directly or indirectly, absolutely no increased utility later on)? Is it a waste of time as well, or is learning an experience worth having or pursuing, even if it had absolutely no connection to pleasure at all?
Despite being a very curious person I’d say that’s waste of time as well. I’m thinking of learning something (presumably) entirely pointless like endless lists full of names and scores of sport stars. Complete waste of time I’d say, I’d probably rather be dead than being forced to pursue such a pointless and pleasureless exercise for the rest of eternity.
In other words: wanting and learning don’t strike me as intrinsically valuable in comparison with pleasure.
So I’d agree with you if I understood you correctly: Pleasure is still the holy grail and sole purpose of our existence—wanting and learning are only important insofar, as they are conductive to pleasure. If they aren’t—to hell with them. At least that’s my current POV. Does anyone have another opinion on this and if so then why?
I think it does, depending of how you interpret the word “desire”. Suppose I’m a smoker who is trying to quit—I don’t like smoking at all anymore, I hate it—but I am still driven to do it, because I simply can’t resist… it’s wanting without liking.
That’s a very good point, and I’m not sure why I didn’t think to rephrase that sentence. I even state, later in the post, that in the case of the drug example one would still want something that provides no pleasure. (In both that example and the smoking example, I might say our brains are being “fooled” by the chemicals involved, by interpreting them as a result of pleasurable activity; but I don’t know if this is correct.)
I was thinking of “desire” in terms of “liking”, I think: I meant my sentence to mean ”...doesn’t seem to support that we would like anything except that which gives us pleasure.”
This is, however, a problem with my phrasing, and not one with the idea I was trying to convey. I hope the rest of my post makes my actual viewpoint clear—as it seems to, since you have indeed understood me correctly. The main thrust of the post was supposed to be that pleasure is still the “Holy Grail.” I will rephrase that sentence to “the rest of the post doesn’t seem to support the idea that we intrinsically value things other than pleasure.”
(A bit off topic: as I said, though, I still wouldn’t get in the experience machine, because how I obtain my pleasure is important to me… or so it seems. I sympathize with your cigarette problem, if it’s not just an example; I used to have an opioid problem. I loved opioids for the pure pleasure they provided, and I still think about them all the time. However, I would never have been content to be given an endless supply of morphine and shot off into space: even while experiencing pleasure as pure as I’ve ever felt it, I wanted to talk to people and write and draw. It seems like the opioid euphoria hit a lot of my “pleasure centers”, but not all of them.)
Thankfully the cigarette problem isn’t mine, I have no past and hopefully no future of addiction. But I know how stupendously hard it can be to jump over one’s shadow and give up short-term gratifications for the benefit of long-term goals or payoffs. I’m a rather impulsive person, but thankfully I never smoked regularly and I stopped drinking alcohol when I was 15 (yeah I can only guess how this would sound in a country where you’re legally prohibited from alcohol consumption until age 21).
I felt that my future would go down the wrong path if I continued drinking with my “friends”, so I used a temporary medical condition as alibi for the others as well as myself to never drink again. Seven years of not drinking at all followed, then I carefully started again in a civilized manner on fitting occasions. Alcohol is a social lubricant that’s just way too useful to not be exploited.
So (un)fortunately I can’t empathize with your opium problem from the experience of a full-blown addiction, but only from the experience of having little self-control in general.
“the rest of the post doesn’t seem to support the idea that we desire things other than pleasure.”
I think it does, depending of how you interpret the word “desire”. Suppose I’m a smoker who is trying to quit—I don’t like smoking at all anymore, I hate it—but I am still driven to do it, because I simply can’t resist… it’s wanting without liking.
So in a sense this example clearly demonstrates, that people are driven by other urges that can be completely divorced from hedonic concerns—which is the whole point of this topic. This seems to be entirely true, so there definitely is an insight to be had here for someone who may have thought otherwise until now.
I think the key to this “but does it really make a sound”-misunderstanding resides within the word “desire” . Do I “desire” to smoke when I actually dislike doing it?
It depends entirely what you mean by “desire”. Because “wanting” and “liking” usually occur simultaneously, some people will interpret the word desire more into the direction of “wanting”, while in other people’s brains it may be associated more with the concept of “liking”.
So what are we even talking about here? If I understood your viewpoint correctly, you’d agree with me that doing something we only “want” but don’t “like” is a waste of time. We may be hardwired to do it, but if there is no gain in pleasure either directly or indirectly from such behavior, it’s a waste of time and not desirable.
What about the concept of learning? What about instances where learning isn’t associated with gain in pleasure at all (directly or indirectly, absolutely no increased utility later on)? Is it a waste of time as well, or is learning an experience worth having or pursuing, even if it had absolutely no connection to pleasure at all?
Despite being a very curious person I’d say that’s waste of time as well. I’m thinking of learning something (presumably) entirely pointless like endless lists full of names and scores of sport stars. Complete waste of time I’d say, I’d probably rather be dead than being forced to pursue such a pointless and pleasureless exercise for the rest of eternity.
In other words: wanting and learning don’t strike me as intrinsically valuable in comparison with pleasure.
So I’d agree with you if I understood you correctly: Pleasure is still the holy grail and sole purpose of our existence—wanting and learning are only important insofar, as they are conductive to pleasure. If they aren’t—to hell with them. At least that’s my current POV. Does anyone have another opinion on this and if so then why?
That’s a very good point, and I’m not sure why I didn’t think to rephrase that sentence. I even state, later in the post, that in the case of the drug example one would still want something that provides no pleasure. (In both that example and the smoking example, I might say our brains are being “fooled” by the chemicals involved, by interpreting them as a result of pleasurable activity; but I don’t know if this is correct.)
I was thinking of “desire” in terms of “liking”, I think: I meant my sentence to mean ”...doesn’t seem to support that we would like anything except that which gives us pleasure.”
This is, however, a problem with my phrasing, and not one with the idea I was trying to convey. I hope the rest of my post makes my actual viewpoint clear—as it seems to, since you have indeed understood me correctly. The main thrust of the post was supposed to be that pleasure is still the “Holy Grail.” I will rephrase that sentence to “the rest of the post doesn’t seem to support the idea that we intrinsically value things other than pleasure.”
(A bit off topic: as I said, though, I still wouldn’t get in the experience machine, because how I obtain my pleasure is important to me… or so it seems. I sympathize with your cigarette problem, if it’s not just an example; I used to have an opioid problem. I loved opioids for the pure pleasure they provided, and I still think about them all the time. However, I would never have been content to be given an endless supply of morphine and shot off into space: even while experiencing pleasure as pure as I’ve ever felt it, I wanted to talk to people and write and draw. It seems like the opioid euphoria hit a lot of my “pleasure centers”, but not all of them.)
Thankfully the cigarette problem isn’t mine, I have no past and hopefully no future of addiction. But I know how stupendously hard it can be to jump over one’s shadow and give up short-term gratifications for the benefit of long-term goals or payoffs. I’m a rather impulsive person, but thankfully I never smoked regularly and I stopped drinking alcohol when I was 15 (yeah I can only guess how this would sound in a country where you’re legally prohibited from alcohol consumption until age 21).
I felt that my future would go down the wrong path if I continued drinking with my “friends”, so I used a temporary medical condition as alibi for the others as well as myself to never drink again. Seven years of not drinking at all followed, then I carefully started again in a civilized manner on fitting occasions. Alcohol is a social lubricant that’s just way too useful to not be exploited.
So (un)fortunately I can’t empathize with your opium problem from the experience of a full-blown addiction, but only from the experience of having little self-control in general.