Yes, I think it’s at least useful to make the attempt. The negative consequences if I turn out to be wrong seem insignificant—oh no, I tried to deceive myself about my ability to feel differently than I do!
As for making up stories about how my dumb emotional self arrived at an irrational belief, that sounds like fun, but I’m not sure how much I’d be confident that I had the right story. I’ve heard pjeby promote the idea (and claim that he can teach people to produce such stories by introspection). But I suppose if these stories work (get you to change your feelings) then there’s also little harm.
″ The negative consequences if I turn out to be wrong seem insignificant—oh no, I tried to deceive myself about my ability to feel differently than I do!”
Repression anyone? I think directly telling yourself, “I don’t feel that way, I feel this way!” can be extremely harmful, since you are ignoring important information in the original feeling. You are likely to express your original feelings in some less direct, more destructive, and of course less rational way if you do this. A stereotypical example is that of a man deciding that he should not feel angry that he did not get a promotion at work and then blowing up at his wife for not doing the dishes properly. Maybe there is nothing to actually be angry about, and screaming at his boss certainly wouldn’t accomplish anything, but ignoring the feeling as invalid is almost certain to end badly.
I think Alicorn is suggesting that if you attempt to understand why you have the feelings you do, and if these reasons don’t make sense, your feelings will likely change naturally without the need to artificially apply different ones.
I’m also not convinced that repression is real. I can’t imagine deceiving myself about how I feel in a moment (lying to others, yes, but what’s more obvious to me than how I feel?). I do believe people can self-deceive about the reason that they’re angry/sad/etc. and attribute that lingering emotion to innocent bystanders instead. Maybe that’s what you mean.
I think you’re underestimating human variation, and some people aren’t skillful at distinguishing their own emotions.
“In the moment” is an interesting point. The Kahneman video about the differences between experience and memory is relevant. I’d say the pattern of repression is feel some undesired emotion, dislike it (probably without naming is), distract oneself from feeling it and probably tighten the muscles which would be used to express it, and blur the memory in the process.
Also, how would you classify : “I’m not angry, it’s just that other people are such idiots.”?
Sounds like someone is both angry and a poor liar ;) I’d classify it as a defensive move by someone who was just accused of being an excessively angry person. I imagine the person is well aware of how angry they are.
Thanks for the video. I don’t agree that my calculation of “how much will I enjoy that?” which guides my decisions is based on the way I’d evaluate what I expect as if it had already happened and I were remembering it, but it’s a fascinating claim. I agree with the rest of Kahneman’s talk. I think he says that reflective happiness is determined by goals and wealth, but experiential happiness is mostly achieved by spending time with people you like (I’m not sure, because he appeared to mislabel one or the other, likely due to speaking error).
I concede that when people are motivated to hide their feelings, the way they do it can include some actual self-deception as well.
As for making up stories about how my dumb emotional self arrived at an irrational belief, that sounds like fun, but I’m not sure how much I’d be confident that I had the right story. I’ve heard pjeby promote the idea (and even claim that he can deduce what’s going on in his clients’ heads). But I suppose if these stories work (get you to change your feelings) then there’s also little harm.
Actually, you point up a big issue in what I have to teach people: how not to make up stories, but rather to simply observe the sounds and images that flash through their heads in response to a mental inquiry. Invariably, these bits of information are not particularly logical or verbally sophsticated, unlike the information that comes from the “making up stories” bit of your brain.
Instead, the truthful information is usually childish, paradoxical, or downright ridiculous. A common reaction upon seeing these things is to go, “Are you kidding me? That’s what this is about? I’ve spent how many years doing/feeling this stupid thing because of that?”
(Ideally, that’s all there is to it—the feeling stops there. But sometimes, you realize that you still believe the stupid thing anyway, even though you know how stupid it is. That then requires a bit more work to construct alternatives, the way Eliezer eliminated his fear of the lurking serial killer.)
Anyway, as I tell people, if you’re not at least a little surprised, confused, or ashamed by what you discover when you do RMI, you’re almost certainly making it up yourself—using the apologist instead of the revolutionary, so to speak. Shut up and ask the question again, then watch, wait, and listen for the answer.
Yes, I think it’s at least useful to make the attempt. The negative consequences if I turn out to be wrong seem insignificant—oh no, I tried to deceive myself about my ability to feel differently than I do!
As for making up stories about how my dumb emotional self arrived at an irrational belief, that sounds like fun, but I’m not sure how much I’d be confident that I had the right story. I’ve heard pjeby promote the idea (and claim that he can teach people to produce such stories by introspection). But I suppose if these stories work (get you to change your feelings) then there’s also little harm.
″ The negative consequences if I turn out to be wrong seem insignificant—oh no, I tried to deceive myself about my ability to feel differently than I do!”
Repression anyone? I think directly telling yourself, “I don’t feel that way, I feel this way!” can be extremely harmful, since you are ignoring important information in the original feeling. You are likely to express your original feelings in some less direct, more destructive, and of course less rational way if you do this. A stereotypical example is that of a man deciding that he should not feel angry that he did not get a promotion at work and then blowing up at his wife for not doing the dishes properly. Maybe there is nothing to actually be angry about, and screaming at his boss certainly wouldn’t accomplish anything, but ignoring the feeling as invalid is almost certain to end badly.
I think Alicorn is suggesting that if you attempt to understand why you have the feelings you do, and if these reasons don’t make sense, your feelings will likely change naturally without the need to artificially apply different ones.
I’m also not convinced that repression is real. I can’t imagine deceiving myself about how I feel in a moment (lying to others, yes, but what’s more obvious to me than how I feel?). I do believe people can self-deceive about the reason that they’re angry/sad/etc. and attribute that lingering emotion to innocent bystanders instead. Maybe that’s what you mean.
I think you’re underestimating human variation, and some people aren’t skillful at distinguishing their own emotions.
“In the moment” is an interesting point. The Kahneman video about the differences between experience and memory is relevant. I’d say the pattern of repression is feel some undesired emotion, dislike it (probably without naming is), distract oneself from feeling it and probably tighten the muscles which would be used to express it, and blur the memory in the process.
Also, how would you classify : “I’m not angry, it’s just that other people are such idiots.”?
Sounds like someone is both angry and a poor liar ;) I’d classify it as a defensive move by someone who was just accused of being an excessively angry person. I imagine the person is well aware of how angry they are.
Thanks for the video. I don’t agree that my calculation of “how much will I enjoy that?” which guides my decisions is based on the way I’d evaluate what I expect as if it had already happened and I were remembering it, but it’s a fascinating claim. I agree with the rest of Kahneman’s talk. I think he says that reflective happiness is determined by goals and wealth, but experiential happiness is mostly achieved by spending time with people you like (I’m not sure, because he appeared to mislabel one or the other, likely due to speaking error).
I concede that when people are motivated to hide their feelings, the way they do it can include some actual self-deception as well.
That’s plausible: “feeling is because of dumb reason X” → feeling retreats → “I must have been right.” I just don’t trust it entirely.
Actually, you point up a big issue in what I have to teach people: how not to make up stories, but rather to simply observe the sounds and images that flash through their heads in response to a mental inquiry. Invariably, these bits of information are not particularly logical or verbally sophsticated, unlike the information that comes from the “making up stories” bit of your brain.
Instead, the truthful information is usually childish, paradoxical, or downright ridiculous. A common reaction upon seeing these things is to go, “Are you kidding me? That’s what this is about? I’ve spent how many years doing/feeling this stupid thing because of that?”
(Ideally, that’s all there is to it—the feeling stops there. But sometimes, you realize that you still believe the stupid thing anyway, even though you know how stupid it is. That then requires a bit more work to construct alternatives, the way Eliezer eliminated his fear of the lurking serial killer.)
Anyway, as I tell people, if you’re not at least a little surprised, confused, or ashamed by what you discover when you do RMI, you’re almost certainly making it up yourself—using the apologist instead of the revolutionary, so to speak. Shut up and ask the question again, then watch, wait, and listen for the answer.