From the outside, it looks to me as if you’re looking more for a status-fight than for a real discussion with SIH.
If you look at this thread you see that the first post I wrote was explicitely thanking him and far away from status-fight. With increased attempts of him to dodge debate, I used more strong language.
when in fact he was intending to apply it only to simpler situations more amenable to first-principles analysis.
If that’s the case than SIH should be criticized for not making it clear in his OP that he talks about simple situations.
For me treating the OP as being about complex situations and noting it explicitely, is completely reasonable.
If he writes a vague post that doesn’t make it clear whether he means complex or simply domains it’s very reasonable for me to say: “I’m assuming you mean complex domains, and here’s what follows from that...”
That brings him in a discussion to clarify what he means if the assumption doesn’t apply. I’m bringing the discussion forward by making that assumption. In this case he instead tried to dodge the debate.
[Before I say anything else, an entirely separate thing: I have consistently been typing your name as “ChristianKI” when in fact it’s “ChristianKl” (the two are pixel-for-pixel identical on my screen, but others using different fonts may see the difference—the wrong one has a capital eye at the end, the right one a lowercase ell). My apologies for getting your name wrong.]
the first post I wrote was [...] far away from status-fight.
OK, I agree. I’d either not read that one, or forgotten it (it was in a separate thread starting from a different top-level comment on SIH’s post).
With increased attempts of him to dodge debate, I used more strong language.
Maybe I’m missing something, but this doesn’t look like an accurate description. The actual sequence appears to be (times as displayed to me by LW—I’m not sure what it does about timezones):
18th, 11:43: friendly comment from CK (which gets a friendly response from SIH; no further discussion there; everything else is in a different thread).
18th, 15:52: challenge from Lumifer (increased rationality versus increased ossification).
18th, 22:24: SIH replies to L listing indications (observed better effectiveness, sense-of-elegance, consonance with others’ opinions).
19th, 11:41: CK picks out one of SIH’s indications (sense-of-elegance) and says “That is also frequently happening with people adopting wrong beliefs”.
19th, 12:20: SIH replies (not claiming infallibility; mathematical experience hones one’s sense of elegance, especially in first-principles cases).
So far, nothing is notably either hostile or evasive, at least to my eyes.
19th, 12:39: CK replies (“seems like having a hedgehog perspective”, “you are unlikely to be very good at predicting”).
This is where I first get the impression of status-fighting. You seem to leap to the assumption that SIH wants to use first-principles reasoning where it doesn’t belong, with (so I still think) no actual justification; you express your criticisms personally (“you are unlikely …”).
19th, 13:12: SIH says CK is jumping to conclusions, and thanks you for the warning.
Doesn’t seem to me either hostile or evasive (though I think it would have been better if he’d said what wrong conclusions he thought you were jumping to).
19th, 13:46: CK defends conclusion-jumping and invites SIH to say what wrong conclusions.
FWIW I tend to disagree with the idea that conclusion-jumping is a good way to find out what someone means, but I don’t see anything either hostile or evasive here.
19th, 21:31: SIH says CK is making a fully general counterargument and challenges CK to argue against his own position.
That’s a weird move, and SIH himself has said (see his edit to that comment) that it was a mistake.
From this point I think the prospects of useful discussion were very poor because both parties were trying to win rather than to understand and arrive jointly at truth.
19th, 12:39: CK replies (“seems like having a hedgehog perspective”
This is where I first get the impression of status-fighting.
“Seems” is a word to make the statement less strong.
The statement provides two productive ways for the discussion to continue:
a) He says that I misunderstand that he advocates hedgehog-style thinking.
b) He defends hedgehog-style thinking as good.
Both of those alternatives lead the discussion to a more substantive place that’s less vague.
Not wanting to take either of those positions but instead criticizing the fact that there’s an assumption is evasive.
If you look at this thread you see that the first post I wrote was explicitely thanking him and far away from status-fight. With increased attempts of him to dodge debate, I used more strong language.
If that’s the case than SIH should be criticized for not making it clear in his OP that he talks about simple situations. For me treating the OP as being about complex situations and noting it explicitely, is completely reasonable.
If he writes a vague post that doesn’t make it clear whether he means complex or simply domains it’s very reasonable for me to say: “I’m assuming you mean complex domains, and here’s what follows from that...” That brings him in a discussion to clarify what he means if the assumption doesn’t apply. I’m bringing the discussion forward by making that assumption. In this case he instead tried to dodge the debate.
[Before I say anything else, an entirely separate thing: I have consistently been typing your name as “ChristianKI” when in fact it’s “ChristianKl” (the two are pixel-for-pixel identical on my screen, but others using different fonts may see the difference—the wrong one has a capital eye at the end, the right one a lowercase ell). My apologies for getting your name wrong.]
OK, I agree. I’d either not read that one, or forgotten it (it was in a separate thread starting from a different top-level comment on SIH’s post).
Maybe I’m missing something, but this doesn’t look like an accurate description. The actual sequence appears to be (times as displayed to me by LW—I’m not sure what it does about timezones):
18th, 11:43: friendly comment from CK (which gets a friendly response from SIH; no further discussion there; everything else is in a different thread).
18th, 15:52: challenge from Lumifer (increased rationality versus increased ossification).
18th, 22:24: SIH replies to L listing indications (observed better effectiveness, sense-of-elegance, consonance with others’ opinions).
19th, 11:41: CK picks out one of SIH’s indications (sense-of-elegance) and says “That is also frequently happening with people adopting wrong beliefs”.
19th, 12:20: SIH replies (not claiming infallibility; mathematical experience hones one’s sense of elegance, especially in first-principles cases).
So far, nothing is notably either hostile or evasive, at least to my eyes.
19th, 12:39: CK replies (“seems like having a hedgehog perspective”, “you are unlikely to be very good at predicting”).
This is where I first get the impression of status-fighting. You seem to leap to the assumption that SIH wants to use first-principles reasoning where it doesn’t belong, with (so I still think) no actual justification; you express your criticisms personally (“you are unlikely …”).
19th, 13:12: SIH says CK is jumping to conclusions, and thanks you for the warning.
Doesn’t seem to me either hostile or evasive (though I think it would have been better if he’d said what wrong conclusions he thought you were jumping to).
19th, 13:46: CK defends conclusion-jumping and invites SIH to say what wrong conclusions.
FWIW I tend to disagree with the idea that conclusion-jumping is a good way to find out what someone means, but I don’t see anything either hostile or evasive here.
19th, 21:31: SIH says CK is making a fully general counterargument and challenges CK to argue against his own position.
That’s a weird move, and SIH himself has said (see his edit to that comment) that it was a mistake.
From this point I think the prospects of useful discussion were very poor because both parties were trying to win rather than to understand and arrive jointly at truth.
“Seems” is a word to make the statement less strong.
The statement provides two productive ways for the discussion to continue:
a) He says that I misunderstand that he advocates hedgehog-style thinking. b) He defends hedgehog-style thinking as good.
Both of those alternatives lead the discussion to a more substantive place that’s less vague. Not wanting to take either of those positions but instead criticizing the fact that there’s an assumption is evasive.
You are certainly missing sent direct messages started by SIH.
Obviously I can’t comment on any private messages between the two of you.