Actually, no. People just have different ways of getting those needs met. The idea that people can actually have different fundamental needs is terribly unscientific—it implies that there’s more physical differentiation between individuals within a species than genetics allows.
I think you are right and I was wrong. Compare the HNP core concerns, the Max-Neef needs, and the NVC needs inventory for more insight.
zero-sum negotiation
That’s not at all what the negotiation project is about. Negotiation theory encompasses zero-sum negotiation (a special case) as well as normal collaborative negotiations, as well as what the latest book calls Bargaining with the Devil, When to Negotiate, When to Fight. Characterizing negotiation as being about how to succeed in zero-sum situations is just wrong, negotiation goes Beyond Winning.
negotiation skills are about influencing someone else
Self control is an important element in influencing others, and as such it is central to negotiation theory. So is interpreting the world as it actually is. Clearly communicating one’s desires without having them interpreted as anything more demanding than a request (i.e. NVC) is useful, but it is only one way to interact with people and will not always be ideal, even among those one is emotionally intimate with.
Self control is an important element in influencing others, and as such it is central to negotiation theory. So is interpreting the world as it actually is. Clearly communicating one’s desires without having them interpreted as anything more demanding than a request (i.e. NVC) is useful, but it is only one way to interact with people and will not always be ideal, even among those one is emotionally intimate with.
I didn’t say negotiation and NVC didn’t have areas of overlap, I said there were areas where their goals might be in conflict. Not the same thing. (I also didn’t say that negotiation was always zero-sum, I said that zero-sum negotiation was an area where conflicts with NVC would likely exist.)
Compare the HNP core concerns, the Max-Neef needs, and the NVC needs inventory for more insight.
You could also look at my own SASS model, or the Murray-Bennett-Robbins models found in lots of self-help stuff. (See e.g. Robbins’ TED talk about the six human needs.) There’s also a recent 16-point needs model that lists all the same stuff, organized differently. (I don’t remember the scientist’s name right off, sorry.)
Pretty much every model of human needs ends up with the same big list, just grouped differently as far as categories. And what categorization you use really depends on what functional goals you have for applying your model, rather than there being any epistemologically “correct” classification. (Well, in theory, there’s whatever physical groupings that occur in the brain or genome, but there’s no point in waiting until we know that before we use the information we have.)
In general, when one is trying to train people to achieve some practical result, the best categorization to use is one that is both mnemonic, and closely tied either to the actions students need to take, and/or to the diagnostic/classification criteria they’ll be using. So, HNP, NVC, and I can all have quite legitimate reasons for categorizing the basic needs differently, depending on what we intend to train people to do.
To respond to this whole thread of discussion, what it seems to me is that NVC is a quite useful tool, and negotiation theory is the toolbox and instruction manuals.
It also seems that NVC could be a better designed tool (that’s not to say that it won’t do it’s job!), and that negotiation theory could be a better formulated heuristic of when to use the NVC-tool, and when to use the other tools...
My concern is now cutting the cruft from both and adding the useful bits into the repertoire of my own rationality.
I’ll have to look into them both further before I make any more in-depth of a comment than that, though.
ETA: Any recommendations on where to start reading up? (Free/online preferrable.)
I didn’t say negotiation and NVC didn’t have areas of overlap, I said there were areas where their goals might be in conflict.
It’s helpful and not difficult to see that zero-sum negotiations are a subset of negotiations in general. The principles of negotiation don’t shatter when a situation is zero-sum, rather, variables applicable to general/collaborative negotiation take on extreme values.
A model that recommended certain behaviors, all ideal for zero-sum negotiation, wouldn’t have goals “in conflict” with standard HNP, and if HNP recommends the same thing as this hypothetical zero-sum unit, then the situation is not best described by “areas of overlap”. It would be encompassed and limited, but fine for what it is.
However, there would be a serious problem if the model’s users did not recognize its limitations relative to the broader theory that encompasses it and correctly cease to use it often. If their beliefs about the system are false, it doesn’t seem likely the model’s designers would happen to find all the correct times to stop using it. It would furthermore be unfortunate if zero-sum trained people found themselves totally at sea whenever that happened, when they could have learned the broader approach all along, like someone who fails a history exam because it must be written in cursive, when they know history and print but not cursive. Hmm I hope to think of a better analogy.
I think that perhaps you are overly concerned with trying to present HNP as unequivocally superior to NVC. I am speaking here only about general criteria for evaluating bodies of knowledge, so your specific arguments about areas of applicability are of no import to me.
I’m not trying to say your favorite body of knowledge isn’t spectacularly wonderful, I’m simply saying that you are wrong to use the epistemic truth or falsehood of “motivational” beliefs as part of evaluating the instrumental utility of a body of practical knowledge that contains said motivational beliefs.
(Where a “motivational” belief is a verbal statement or set of advocated principles whose sole function within that body of knowledge is to prime one or more intuition pumps that are part of the skill being taught.)
This has nothing to do with HNP; it’s strictly regarding your earlier dismissal of NVC. So, it would not matter one whit whether the things being discussed were ABC and XYZ instead of HNP and NVC—I would still be making the same basic point here.
I’m simply saying that you are wrong to use the epistemic truth or falsehood of “motivational” beliefs as part of evaluating the instrumental utility of a body of practical knowledge that contains said motivational beliefs.
Where a “motivational” belief is a verbal statement or set of advocated principles whose sole function within that body of knowledge is to prime one or more intuition pumps that are part of the skill being taught.
Do you have evidence that this is the sole intended function of the foundational NVC beliefs (and many others), as distinguished from others which are intended as both true and motivational?
This is an example of a person (a CNVC Certified Trainer and Executive Director) correctly using a motivational “belief”. He thinks of himself as if he were a robot and has different homunculi within him, etc., and he is able to do this without actually believing he is a robot. He will certainly not derive things based on the assumption his nature being that of a robot, unlike with the false beliefs underlying so much of NVC, such as that his true nature is non-violent and socialization has taught him violence, etc.
Having false beliefs is bad in ways that are hard to predict, and it is important not to seek beliefs that are useful in a narrow sense rather than true (which is useful in the broad sense).
The concept you are talking about is common and widely used, and it’s even used correctly by the NVC person in the example I gave, but I have not seen and you have given no evidence that that is what NVC does most of the time.
I said that NVC is sub-optimal because the theory is untrue, it’s unclear how much the practice was shaped by the theory rather than vice versa, unlike the HNP it doesn’t seem to be based on rigorous peer review, etc. see above. You really have been talking about ABC and XYZ, and the point you are trying to make does not arise naturally in this case since that is apparently not what NVC is generally doing. Thanks to HNP, we know negotiation/interpersonal interaction can be taught, and well, without resorting to useful lies. I first said:
I am very, very unimpressed with it, particularly as it contrasts with a negotiation course I took taught by an editor of the last few books of the Harvard Negotiation Research Project Director.
My “dismissal” of NVC was due to knowing that there is a better way, so it doesn’t make sense to say “This has nothing to do with HNP” if the subject is my dismissal of NVC. As far as I could see from a quick overview, NVC is actually quite similar to a subset of HNP, that’s why it’s possible to say one is better than the other. It’s easier to compare shortstops to shortstops than shortstops to pitchers, particularly if those pitchers are jugs used for holding liquids. But a player who can play any position is really something.
I agree motivational “beliefs” are useful tools, but swooping down like Spider-Man to rescue false beliefs by saying they weren’t intended to be true would be an instance of the no true Scotsman fallacy, and trying to rescue them by saying no motivational “beliefs” are intended to be true (in the context of NVC) would be unsupported.
False statements don’t have the property of ritual impurity, irrevocably tainting by association all things associated with the speaker. Of course NVC could contain something useful. I qualified my skepticism based on my familiarity with it, its habit of proliferating nonsensical theories, etc. You introduced the word “dismissal”.
I am speaking here only about general criteria for evaluating bodies of knowledge, so your specific arguments about areas of applicability are of no import to me.
Pretend they’re analogies. In general, if one knows it is possible to teach a true theory or a false theory to motivate behavior, all else equal, the true one is preferable. E.g. NVC v. HNP. One cannot entirely dismiss the false belief based system unless one knows the goals are achievable under a true one, e.g., there is a difference in what judgments of NVC are justified between one person who knows about HNP and another who does not.
I agree motivational “beliefs” are useful tools, but swooping down like Spider-Man to rescue false beliefs by saying they weren’t intended to be true would be an instance of the no true Scotsman fallacy, and trying to rescue them by saying no motivational “beliefs” are intended to be true (in the context of NVC) would be unsupported.
Do note that I didn’t make either of those arguments. You still seem to be confusing me with someone who wishes to promote NVC.
(If I were such an advocate, I’d be a pretty bad one, since many of my statements to you have been both evaluative and judgmental. ;-) )
I think you are right and I was wrong. Compare the HNP core concerns, the Max-Neef needs, and the NVC needs inventory for more insight.
That’s not at all what the negotiation project is about. Negotiation theory encompasses zero-sum negotiation (a special case) as well as normal collaborative negotiations, as well as what the latest book calls Bargaining with the Devil, When to Negotiate, When to Fight. Characterizing negotiation as being about how to succeed in zero-sum situations is just wrong, negotiation goes Beyond Winning.
Self control is an important element in influencing others, and as such it is central to negotiation theory. So is interpreting the world as it actually is. Clearly communicating one’s desires without having them interpreted as anything more demanding than a request (i.e. NVC) is useful, but it is only one way to interact with people and will not always be ideal, even among those one is emotionally intimate with.
I didn’t say negotiation and NVC didn’t have areas of overlap, I said there were areas where their goals might be in conflict. Not the same thing. (I also didn’t say that negotiation was always zero-sum, I said that zero-sum negotiation was an area where conflicts with NVC would likely exist.)
You could also look at my own SASS model, or the Murray-Bennett-Robbins models found in lots of self-help stuff. (See e.g. Robbins’ TED talk about the six human needs.) There’s also a recent 16-point needs model that lists all the same stuff, organized differently. (I don’t remember the scientist’s name right off, sorry.)
Pretty much every model of human needs ends up with the same big list, just grouped differently as far as categories. And what categorization you use really depends on what functional goals you have for applying your model, rather than there being any epistemologically “correct” classification. (Well, in theory, there’s whatever physical groupings that occur in the brain or genome, but there’s no point in waiting until we know that before we use the information we have.)
In general, when one is trying to train people to achieve some practical result, the best categorization to use is one that is both mnemonic, and closely tied either to the actions students need to take, and/or to the diagnostic/classification criteria they’ll be using. So, HNP, NVC, and I can all have quite legitimate reasons for categorizing the basic needs differently, depending on what we intend to train people to do.
To respond to this whole thread of discussion, what it seems to me is that NVC is a quite useful tool, and negotiation theory is the toolbox and instruction manuals.
It also seems that NVC could be a better designed tool (that’s not to say that it won’t do it’s job!), and that negotiation theory could be a better formulated heuristic of when to use the NVC-tool, and when to use the other tools...
My concern is now cutting the cruft from both and adding the useful bits into the repertoire of my own rationality.
I’ll have to look into them both further before I make any more in-depth of a comment than that, though.
ETA: Any recommendations on where to start reading up? (Free/online preferrable.)
It’s helpful and not difficult to see that zero-sum negotiations are a subset of negotiations in general. The principles of negotiation don’t shatter when a situation is zero-sum, rather, variables applicable to general/collaborative negotiation take on extreme values.
A model that recommended certain behaviors, all ideal for zero-sum negotiation, wouldn’t have goals “in conflict” with standard HNP, and if HNP recommends the same thing as this hypothetical zero-sum unit, then the situation is not best described by “areas of overlap”. It would be encompassed and limited, but fine for what it is.
However, there would be a serious problem if the model’s users did not recognize its limitations relative to the broader theory that encompasses it and correctly cease to use it often. If their beliefs about the system are false, it doesn’t seem likely the model’s designers would happen to find all the correct times to stop using it. It would furthermore be unfortunate if zero-sum trained people found themselves totally at sea whenever that happened, when they could have learned the broader approach all along, like someone who fails a history exam because it must be written in cursive, when they know history and print but not cursive. Hmm I hope to think of a better analogy.
I think that perhaps you are overly concerned with trying to present HNP as unequivocally superior to NVC. I am speaking here only about general criteria for evaluating bodies of knowledge, so your specific arguments about areas of applicability are of no import to me.
I’m not trying to say your favorite body of knowledge isn’t spectacularly wonderful, I’m simply saying that you are wrong to use the epistemic truth or falsehood of “motivational” beliefs as part of evaluating the instrumental utility of a body of practical knowledge that contains said motivational beliefs.
(Where a “motivational” belief is a verbal statement or set of advocated principles whose sole function within that body of knowledge is to prime one or more intuition pumps that are part of the skill being taught.)
This has nothing to do with HNP; it’s strictly regarding your earlier dismissal of NVC. So, it would not matter one whit whether the things being discussed were ABC and XYZ instead of HNP and NVC—I would still be making the same basic point here.
Do you have evidence that this is the sole intended function of the foundational NVC beliefs (and many others), as distinguished from others which are intended as both true and motivational?
This is an example of a person (a CNVC Certified Trainer and Executive Director) correctly using a motivational “belief”. He thinks of himself as if he were a robot and has different homunculi within him, etc., and he is able to do this without actually believing he is a robot. He will certainly not derive things based on the assumption his nature being that of a robot, unlike with the false beliefs underlying so much of NVC, such as that his true nature is non-violent and socialization has taught him violence, etc.
Having false beliefs is bad in ways that are hard to predict, and it is important not to seek beliefs that are useful in a narrow sense rather than true (which is useful in the broad sense).
The concept you are talking about is common and widely used, and it’s even used correctly by the NVC person in the example I gave, but I have not seen and you have given no evidence that that is what NVC does most of the time.
I said that NVC is sub-optimal because the theory is untrue, it’s unclear how much the practice was shaped by the theory rather than vice versa, unlike the HNP it doesn’t seem to be based on rigorous peer review, etc. see above. You really have been talking about ABC and XYZ, and the point you are trying to make does not arise naturally in this case since that is apparently not what NVC is generally doing. Thanks to HNP, we know negotiation/interpersonal interaction can be taught, and well, without resorting to useful lies. I first said:
My “dismissal” of NVC was due to knowing that there is a better way, so it doesn’t make sense to say “This has nothing to do with HNP” if the subject is my dismissal of NVC. As far as I could see from a quick overview, NVC is actually quite similar to a subset of HNP, that’s why it’s possible to say one is better than the other. It’s easier to compare shortstops to shortstops than shortstops to pitchers, particularly if those pitchers are jugs used for holding liquids. But a player who can play any position is really something.
I agree motivational “beliefs” are useful tools, but swooping down like Spider-Man to rescue false beliefs by saying they weren’t intended to be true would be an instance of the no true Scotsman fallacy, and trying to rescue them by saying no motivational “beliefs” are intended to be true (in the context of NVC) would be unsupported.
False statements don’t have the property of ritual impurity, irrevocably tainting by association all things associated with the speaker. Of course NVC could contain something useful. I qualified my skepticism based on my familiarity with it, its habit of proliferating nonsensical theories, etc. You introduced the word “dismissal”.
Pretend they’re analogies. In general, if one knows it is possible to teach a true theory or a false theory to motivate behavior, all else equal, the true one is preferable. E.g. NVC v. HNP. One cannot entirely dismiss the false belief based system unless one knows the goals are achievable under a true one, e.g., there is a difference in what judgments of NVC are justified between one person who knows about HNP and another who does not.
Do note that I didn’t make either of those arguments. You still seem to be confusing me with someone who wishes to promote NVC.
(If I were such an advocate, I’d be a pretty bad one, since many of my statements to you have been both evaluative and judgmental. ;-) )