This article is written entirely from a male perspective. As a 17 year old girl I find inflammatory the way the female view point is completely absent. I think you will find that the vast majority of young women my age, myself included, are not attracted to “older” men. I also don’t understand why you keep referring to “evolution”. In no way would it be biologically advantageous for someone my age to procraete with an old man. You seem to forget that although men may generally remain fertile for longer than women, male fertility still declines with age. This is evident in the fact that their are increased health risks for offspring of older fathers as well as older mothers. The desirability of older men to young women only makes sense within a culture where stature and power are desirable attributes, and are more commonly held by older males. In a purely biological sense, it would make sense for young women to have children with young men who are most fertile and capable of handling the physical demands of raising a child. As the treatment of the sexes becomes more equal women have morer power and autonomy. They no longer need to rely on male counterparts to determine their position in society. Relationships are increasingly built on companionship, respect, and shared interests which are more commonly found in similar age partnerships.
I think you will find that the vast majority of young women my age, myself included, are not attracted to “older” men.
That sounds like generalizing from one example to me. The fact that only in a small minority (my guesstimate would be at around 15%) of heterosexual long-term relationships is the woman older than the man (at least where I am) suggests otherwise.
I think all of us commenting have different age ranges in our heads for ‘older men’ and ‘younger women’. Anyhow the OP as far as I understand talks about very young women - ‘girls who have recently exited puberty’, and the discussion in the comments talking about ‘power’ and ‘stature’ seems to suggest men who are already fairly well established in their careers—at least the early thirties?
That’s anywhere from a 15-20 year age gap. Not a whole lot more common than older woman-younger men pairings.
I am speaking from my experiences with girls my age. At no point did I claim that the majority of heterosexual long-term relationships are made up of older women and younger men.
It seems weird to expect that men are sexually attracted to traits that are desirable from a evolutionary point of view, but that women aren’t. Being attracted to older men is a fetish, not the norm, in our society, so there’s probably a more optimal group for young women to be attracted to. In a way I buy the “looking at the group which benefits most” solution, but paying attention to young women, not older ones—most young women are either with hot boys their age, or have strong opposition to sex before marriage/love/whatever at all, so they’re mostly not available to older men.
Furthermore, I suspect that a more relevant question is of how birth control has changed the concept of sexual fitness. If a man’s trying to reproduce, he’s got a vastly better shot with a woman his age, regardless of whether a younger woman’s willing to have sex with him—what few sixteen-year-olds who are willing to be mothers in the modern day are much less prepared for the task than their nineteenth-century counterparts, because that’s not a thing we teach young women, because the default action in a woman’s life is to be in school until she’s twenty-two or twenty-four.
TL;DR birth control makes it feasible for women to not reproduce indefinitely long, and most of them would rather be in school attaining their own status and banging hot young men than obtaining status from men and taking care of babies.
Absolutely, but since empirically most young (18-22) women don’t get with older men, they either prefer the tradeoff (valuing status in the “little pool” of college social life more than global status, in return for being with an attractive young man) or there’s something else at work here.
Your framework says that men are mostly attracted to reproductive fitness, and women are mostly attracted to status. This appears basically true, but it seems to me like women have much more interest in reproductive fitness in their partners, than men do in status. Nearly all of the straight men I know are neutral to or anti-interested in status in a mate, whereas evo-psych seems to consistently under-predict for women’s sexual interest in physical attractiveness.
evo-psych seems to consistently under-predict for women’s sexual interest in physical attractiveness
I suspect this might be a societal effect (akin to the now-widespread evolutionarily nonsensical male preference for very thin women). Does anyone have data on whether women in pre-industrial (or even just pre-mass media) societies cared about men’s looks less than they today?
Why do you assume that all men given the choice would prefer to be with college girls? And why do you seem to think of younger women as pawns whose fates are decided solely by the wills of older men?
Perhaps it is because they actually married them when they were young, but at any given time your average “trophy wife” will by in her 30′s?
This is a complex problem. I’m not sure the answer can be found without some in-depth statistical analysis.
Also, Rubix seems to be looking at things from the wrong perspective. It’s not that women don’t get with older men, it is likely the case that all the older men, and the men of status are taken. The younger men are not. Looking at it from the older men’s point of view: what is the likelihood of an older, successful, single man getting together with women of a given age? I would guess it is much higher for younger women.
I was unsure as to why you kept referring to evolution. I think the advantages of an older mate exist only within certain cultures. I was trying to say that what is socially advantageous is not always biologically so.
“Certain cultures” being damn near all of them, including every society I’ve ever participated in. Now, is it possible that younger people and women held the most power in (one or more of) our ancestral environment(s)? Yes. Totally.
There are a lot of “older” male actors praised for their sexiness (some contemporary examples would be Daniel Craig and George Clooney), although the usual age for an actor to become a “teen hearthrob” (such as Leonardo DiCaprio in Titanic, Orlando Bloom in Pirates of the Caribbean, or Robert Pattinson in Twilight) does seem to be mid-twenties.
The representation of older men in the media is always more complementary than that of older women. Particularly in regards to appearance and discussion of desirability etc. This is probably something to do with the fact that the majority of mass media is controlled by older males. For example the age difference between a husband and wife on television or in films is likely to be far higher than the average age difference in reality, with older men often being shown with a partner 10-15 years younger than them.
I think there’s a drift in your comment from “older men” to “old men”.
There’s a difference between saying that young women (which probably includes up to age 25 or so) might prefer 40 or 50 year old men, and saying that young women prefer 70 year old men.
Your general point might be correct—my impression is that to the extent that there’s any truth in the evo psych view of human mating, it applies rather narrowly at the margin, and most people don’t live like that.
This article is written entirely from a male perspective.
Wait… Is it? I’ve read it again and I can’t see anything making the author’s gender obvious, other than the last three letters of his username. (I had taken “we” to refer to society in general.) If I hadn’t noticed his username and hadn’t been primed by reading your comment (on Top Comments Today) before reading the article, I might have guessed the author was a teenage girl disappointed by the fact that older men wouldn’t date her.
The article only examines the issue in terms of what “makes biological sense” for men. It discusses the fertility of women and advantages of “going for” women of different ages but neglects to highlight any of the biological advantages from a female perspective. It ignores the fact that to ensure the highest rates of evolutionary success it doesn’t make sense for 16 year olds to procreate with much older, less fertile males. It questions why men aren’t sleeping with 16 year olds, ignoring the fact that 16 year olds choose who they sleep with.
This article is written entirely from a male perspective. As a 17 year old girl I find inflammatory the way the female view point is completely absent. I think you will find that the vast majority of young women my age, myself included, are not attracted to “older” men. I also don’t understand why you keep referring to “evolution”. In no way would it be biologically advantageous for someone my age to procraete with an old man. You seem to forget that although men may generally remain fertile for longer than women, male fertility still declines with age. This is evident in the fact that their are increased health risks for offspring of older fathers as well as older mothers. The desirability of older men to young women only makes sense within a culture where stature and power are desirable attributes, and are more commonly held by older males. In a purely biological sense, it would make sense for young women to have children with young men who are most fertile and capable of handling the physical demands of raising a child. As the treatment of the sexes becomes more equal women have morer power and autonomy. They no longer need to rely on male counterparts to determine their position in society. Relationships are increasingly built on companionship, respect, and shared interests which are more commonly found in similar age partnerships.
That sounds like generalizing from one example to me. The fact that only in a small minority (my guesstimate would be at around 15%) of heterosexual long-term relationships is the woman older than the man (at least where I am) suggests otherwise.
I think all of us commenting have different age ranges in our heads for ‘older men’ and ‘younger women’. Anyhow the OP as far as I understand talks about very young women - ‘girls who have recently exited puberty’, and the discussion in the comments talking about ‘power’ and ‘stature’ seems to suggest men who are already fairly well established in their careers—at least the early thirties?
That’s anywhere from a 15-20 year age gap. Not a whole lot more common than older woman-younger men pairings.
I am speaking from my experiences with girls my age. At no point did I claim that the majority of heterosexual long-term relationships are made up of older women and younger men.
[comment deleted]
It seems weird to expect that men are sexually attracted to traits that are desirable from a evolutionary point of view, but that women aren’t. Being attracted to older men is a fetish, not the norm, in our society, so there’s probably a more optimal group for young women to be attracted to. In a way I buy the “looking at the group which benefits most” solution, but paying attention to young women, not older ones—most young women are either with hot boys their age, or have strong opposition to sex before marriage/love/whatever at all, so they’re mostly not available to older men.
Furthermore, I suspect that a more relevant question is of how birth control has changed the concept of sexual fitness. If a man’s trying to reproduce, he’s got a vastly better shot with a woman his age, regardless of whether a younger woman’s willing to have sex with him—what few sixteen-year-olds who are willing to be mothers in the modern day are much less prepared for the task than their nineteenth-century counterparts, because that’s not a thing we teach young women, because the default action in a woman’s life is to be in school until she’s twenty-two or twenty-four.
TL;DR birth control makes it feasible for women to not reproduce indefinitely long, and most of them would rather be in school attaining their own status and banging hot young men than obtaining status from men and taking care of babies.
[comment deleted]
Absolutely, but since empirically most young (18-22) women don’t get with older men, they either prefer the tradeoff (valuing status in the “little pool” of college social life more than global status, in return for being with an attractive young man) or there’s something else at work here.
Your framework says that men are mostly attracted to reproductive fitness, and women are mostly attracted to status. This appears basically true, but it seems to me like women have much more interest in reproductive fitness in their partners, than men do in status. Nearly all of the straight men I know are neutral to or anti-interested in status in a mate, whereas evo-psych seems to consistently under-predict for women’s sexual interest in physical attractiveness.
I suspect this might be a societal effect (akin to the now-widespread evolutionarily nonsensical male preference for very thin women). Does anyone have data on whether women in pre-industrial (or even just pre-mass media) societies cared about men’s looks less than they today?
[comment deleted]
Why do you assume that all men given the choice would prefer to be with college girls? And why do you seem to think of younger women as pawns whose fates are decided solely by the wills of older men?
Perhaps it is because they actually married them when they were young, but at any given time your average “trophy wife” will by in her 30′s?
This is a complex problem. I’m not sure the answer can be found without some in-depth statistical analysis.
Also, Rubix seems to be looking at things from the wrong perspective. It’s not that women don’t get with older men, it is likely the case that all the older men, and the men of status are taken. The younger men are not. Looking at it from the older men’s point of view: what is the likelihood of an older, successful, single man getting together with women of a given age? I would guess it is much higher for younger women.
I was unsure as to why you kept referring to evolution. I think the advantages of an older mate exist only within certain cultures. I was trying to say that what is socially advantageous is not always biologically so.
“Certain cultures” being damn near all of them, including every society I’ve ever participated in. Now, is it possible that younger people and women held the most power in (one or more of) our ancestral environment(s)? Yes. Totally.
But I kinda doubt it.
There are a lot of “older” male actors praised for their sexiness (some contemporary examples would be Daniel Craig and George Clooney), although the usual age for an actor to become a “teen hearthrob” (such as Leonardo DiCaprio in Titanic, Orlando Bloom in Pirates of the Caribbean, or Robert Pattinson in Twilight) does seem to be mid-twenties.
The representation of older men in the media is always more complementary than that of older women. Particularly in regards to appearance and discussion of desirability etc. This is probably something to do with the fact that the majority of mass media is controlled by older males. For example the age difference between a husband and wife on television or in films is likely to be far higher than the average age difference in reality, with older men often being shown with a partner 10-15 years younger than them.
I think there’s a drift in your comment from “older men” to “old men”.
There’s a difference between saying that young women (which probably includes up to age 25 or so) might prefer 40 or 50 year old men, and saying that young women prefer 70 year old men.
Your general point might be correct—my impression is that to the extent that there’s any truth in the evo psych view of human mating, it applies rather narrowly at the margin, and most people don’t live like that.
Wait… Is it? I’ve read it again and I can’t see anything making the author’s gender obvious, other than the last three letters of his username. (I had taken “we” to refer to society in general.) If I hadn’t noticed his username and hadn’t been primed by reading your comment (on Top Comments Today) before reading the article, I might have guessed the author was a teenage girl disappointed by the fact that older men wouldn’t date her.
The article only examines the issue in terms of what “makes biological sense” for men. It discusses the fertility of women and advantages of “going for” women of different ages but neglects to highlight any of the biological advantages from a female perspective. It ignores the fact that to ensure the highest rates of evolutionary success it doesn’t make sense for 16 year olds to procreate with much older, less fertile males. It questions why men aren’t sleeping with 16 year olds, ignoring the fact that 16 year olds choose who they sleep with.
[comment deleted]