So, my dad is continuing to refuse vaccines, and while he’s not naming any of the people he trusts on this issue, one of his claims is about “infertility” and the only original source of infertility claims I’m aware of is Steve Kirsch. So I’d like to ask for your perspective on this.
Kirsch was praised by Bret Weinstein for continuing to update his anti-vax article as he found new information. And yet, Kirsch’s headline claim about the danger of vaccines—the very first claim he makes, the claim that the vaccines “likely killed over 25,800 Americans”—was retracted on June 18 by the person to whom Kirsch linked as evidence of that claim, Austin Walters. Walters also explained why his claim was wrong. But Kirsch didn’t change the beginning of his article at all. So Kirsch was supposedly keeping his article up-to-date, but he made an exception for the 25,800 deaths claim (and then, of course, he removed his name from the article and other names including Robert Malone appeared instead.)
Also, Steve said this: “Biodistribution of lipid nanoparticles which carry the mRNA show that the ovaries get the highest concentration” … but this is clearly untrue.
My question is, does this reduce the credibility you attach to Steve Kirsch and Robert Malone? If not, why not?
Also, do you know of any other original (not parroted) sources of infertility claims other than Steve Kirsch?
(On the other hand, if it does reduce their credibility… Yuri Deigin says he was a friend of Bret Weinstein before all of this started, and says that he told Bret about how Steve was misreporting the data re: ovaries (among other things). Do you know if Bret has ever backpedaled about this claim or otherwise distanced himself from Steve Kirsch? And if not, does it speak to Bret’s credibility?)
Even if what Steve is saying about the vaccines producing problems in the ovaries which can cause infertility would be true, that shouldn’t matter to your dad because he doesn’t have ovaries. I haven’t heard any claims for male infertility.
Also, Steve said this: “Biodistribution of lipid nanoparticles which carry the mRNA show that the ovaries get the highest concentration” … but this is clearly untrue.
My question is, does this reduce the credibility you attach to Steve Kirsch and Robert Malone? If not, why not?
My view of Kirsch is at the moment is that he strongly pattern matches and this seems to both result in fast detection of issues and also in overmatching and seeing patterns where there are none.
Here there’s more concentration in the ovaries then in most other tissues according to the EMA documents but saying it’s the highest concentration is overstating it.
Generally, I haven’t meet anyone who had clear negative consequences from the vaccine in the way Kirsch describes so I find the thesis that the side effects are so common falsified.
Credibility is a quite complex thing. There’s a tradeoff between taking no action and requiring a lot of evidence and taking action based on too little evidence.
Besides the lying one of the problems with people in the establishment like Fauci is that they require a lot of evidence and as a result we still haven’t updated our vaccines to the delta spike protein. Kirsch is one the other hand of that spectrum.
Taking a lot of bets and not needing all to payoff is likely what makes him a good venture capitalist. I do think it’s worthwhile to listen to people on all parts of that spectrum.
Steve appears to have two separate and very different evidence thresholds. In the “25,800 deaths” case, he accepts evidence in one direction readily while ignoring evidence from the same source in the other direction.
Also, he should have known that the ovaries statement was false from the first time he said it (and the fact that he chose neither to show the original source data, nor link to it, nor even be specific about where he got the information, suggests that he knew what he was doing.)
It’s puzzling that your analysis ignores the facts I put before you.
Steve appears to have two separate and very different evidence thresholds. In the “25,800 deaths” case, he accepts evidence in one direction readily while ignoring evidence from the same source in the other direction.
Anyone who’s serious about medicine has different evidence thresholds for risks and safety of drugs. That’s why the FDA takes a lot of evidence to allow a new drug to be marketed while at the same time withdrawing a drug from market.
I just learned that my Dad’s unvaccinated brother died with Covid-19 yesterday.
One thing I didn’t mention before was that my Dad knew his brother was in hospital with Covid on a ventilator, and still refused to take a vaccine because he claims it has caused “100,000” deaths (plus justifications that don’t apply to him, like “infertility!” and “harms children!”).
Now I suppose Kirsch isn’t the one using the number 100,000; he was saying 25,800 four months ago and now the Malone/Kirsch/etc group is saying things like this:
[...] the death toll is over 40,000 people.
[...] the vaccine is more likely to kill you than save you. For example, Pfizer’s own study showed deaths from COVID were reduced by a factor of 2, but this saving was more than offset by deaths from cardiac arrest which went up by 4X.
(Of course, the details of both of these claims are behind a paywall, though the first one was published before the paywall went up so interested parties can see it on the Wayback Machine. I googled for a little while for these claims, finding Snopes and Politifact reporting “False” and “pants on fire” for a claim of 45,000 deaths, though I found no one else making or analyzing the second claim, just NYT saying “Heart Problem More Common After Covid-19 Than After Vaccination”. FWIW I got a new permanent heart problem after contracting Covid and before getting the vaccine, but there’s a strong chance it’s unconnected.)
Regardless of who said “100,000”, Kirsch helped get the ball rolling, and now my uncle and former legal guardian is dead.
But people like you, and probably even my Dad, can’t bring themselves to consider that maybe, just maybe, Kirsch et al are not acting in good faith (or are otherwise epistemically compromised). Why is that? I really can’t fathom it. I mean, sure, there’s outgroup hate and ingroup love, but to risk your life without allowing even a seed of doubt in your mind that you could be wrong?
I really can’t fathom it. I mean, sure, there’s outgroup hate and ingroup love, but to risk your life without allowing even a seed of doubt in your mind that you could be wrong?
I’m vaccinated. To the extend that I’m making currently choices about risking COVID-19 it’s a combination of not ordering Ivermectin from India, not taking my taffix and chosing to go to events where there are other people.
I’m thinking I’m arguing for more doubt on most of the major issues involved. The expecation is the lab leak hypnothesis where I think there’s less doubt than many other people but that’s not directly medical policy.
Lest you forgot, the two pieces of evidence in question are the assertions (1) “X” and (2) “my assertion X was wrong and here’s why” on the same blog post. You’re saying it is reasonable to conclude from (1) and (2) that X is true.
Moreover the blog post is written specifically by a fan of Kirsch (it linked back to Kirsch for its claim that “the Pfizer mRNA vaccine will have the highest concentration in the ovaries and bone marrow”) so Kirsch should have no reason not to trust (2).
So, my dad is continuing to refuse vaccines, and while he’s not naming any of the people he trusts on this issue, one of his claims is about “infertility” and the only original source of infertility claims I’m aware of is Steve Kirsch. So I’d like to ask for your perspective on this.
Kirsch was praised by Bret Weinstein for continuing to update his anti-vax article as he found new information. And yet, Kirsch’s headline claim about the danger of vaccines—the very first claim he makes, the claim that the vaccines “likely killed over 25,800 Americans”—was retracted on June 18 by the person to whom Kirsch linked as evidence of that claim, Austin Walters. Walters also explained why his claim was wrong. But Kirsch didn’t change the beginning of his article at all. So Kirsch was supposedly keeping his article up-to-date, but he made an exception for the 25,800 deaths claim (and then, of course, he removed his name from the article and other names including Robert Malone appeared instead.)
Also, Steve said this: “Biodistribution of lipid nanoparticles which carry the mRNA show that the ovaries get the highest concentration” … but this is clearly untrue.
My question is, does this reduce the credibility you attach to Steve Kirsch and Robert Malone? If not, why not?
Also, do you know of any other original (not parroted) sources of infertility claims other than Steve Kirsch?
(On the other hand, if it does reduce their credibility… Yuri Deigin says he was a friend of Bret Weinstein before all of this started, and says that he told Bret about how Steve was misreporting the data re: ovaries (among other things). Do you know if Bret has ever backpedaled about this claim or otherwise distanced himself from Steve Kirsch? And if not, does it speak to Bret’s credibility?)
Even if what Steve is saying about the vaccines producing problems in the ovaries which can cause infertility would be true, that shouldn’t matter to your dad because he doesn’t have ovaries. I haven’t heard any claims for male infertility.
My view of Kirsch is at the moment is that he strongly pattern matches and this seems to both result in fast detection of issues and also in overmatching and seeing patterns where there are none.
Here there’s more concentration in the ovaries then in most other tissues according to the EMA documents but saying it’s the highest concentration is overstating it.
Generally, I haven’t meet anyone who had clear negative consequences from the vaccine in the way Kirsch describes so I find the thesis that the side effects are so common falsified.
I take that as a no. That is, you judge his specific hypotheses but refrain from judging his credibility.
Credibility is a quite complex thing. There’s a tradeoff between taking no action and requiring a lot of evidence and taking action based on too little evidence.
Besides the lying one of the problems with people in the establishment like Fauci is that they require a lot of evidence and as a result we still haven’t updated our vaccines to the delta spike protein. Kirsch is one the other hand of that spectrum.
Taking a lot of bets and not needing all to payoff is likely what makes him a good venture capitalist. I do think it’s worthwhile to listen to people on all parts of that spectrum.
Steve appears to have two separate and very different evidence thresholds. In the “25,800 deaths” case, he accepts evidence in one direction readily while ignoring evidence from the same source in the other direction.
Also, he should have known that the ovaries statement was false from the first time he said it (and the fact that he chose neither to show the original source data, nor link to it, nor even be specific about where he got the information, suggests that he knew what he was doing.)
It’s puzzling that your analysis ignores the facts I put before you.
Anyone who’s serious about medicine has different evidence thresholds for risks and safety of drugs. That’s why the FDA takes a lot of evidence to allow a new drug to be marketed while at the same time withdrawing a drug from market.
I just learned that my Dad’s unvaccinated brother died with Covid-19 yesterday.
One thing I didn’t mention before was that my Dad knew his brother was in hospital with Covid on a ventilator, and still refused to take a vaccine because he claims it has caused “100,000” deaths (plus justifications that don’t apply to him, like “infertility!” and “harms children!”).
Now I suppose Kirsch isn’t the one using the number 100,000; he was saying 25,800 four months ago and now the Malone/Kirsch/etc group is saying things like this:
(Of course, the details of both of these claims are behind a paywall, though the first one was published before the paywall went up so interested parties can see it on the Wayback Machine. I googled for a little while for these claims, finding Snopes and Politifact reporting “False” and “pants on fire” for a claim of 45,000 deaths, though I found no one else making or analyzing the second claim, just NYT saying “Heart Problem More Common After Covid-19 Than After Vaccination”. FWIW I got a new permanent heart problem after contracting Covid and before getting the vaccine, but there’s a strong chance it’s unconnected.)
Regardless of who said “100,000”, Kirsch helped get the ball rolling, and now my uncle and former legal guardian is dead.
But people like you, and probably even my Dad, can’t bring themselves to consider that maybe, just maybe, Kirsch et al are not acting in good faith (or are otherwise epistemically compromised). Why is that? I really can’t fathom it. I mean, sure, there’s outgroup hate and ingroup love, but to risk your life without allowing even a seed of doubt in your mind that you could be wrong?
I’m sorry to hear about your uncle, DP.
I’m vaccinated. To the extend that I’m making currently choices about risking COVID-19 it’s a combination of not ordering Ivermectin from India, not taking my taffix and chosing to go to events where there are other people.
I’m thinking I’m arguing for more doubt on most of the major issues involved. The expecation is the lab leak hypnothesis where I think there’s less doubt than many other people but that’s not directly medical policy.
Kirsch is also fully vaccinated. You’re still
deflectingnot answering the questions I ask.Lest you forgot, the two pieces of evidence in question are the assertions (1) “X” and (2) “my assertion X was wrong and here’s why” on the same blog post. You’re saying it is reasonable to conclude from (1) and (2) that X is true.
Moreover the blog post is written specifically by a fan of Kirsch (it linked back to Kirsch for its claim that “the Pfizer mRNA vaccine will have the highest concentration in the ovaries and bone marrow”) so Kirsch should have no reason not to trust (2).