To be honest, I suspect a lot of those folks, and I include myself here, were anti-collectivists first.
In my own mind, the emotive rule “I might follow, but I must never obey” is built over a long childhood war and an eventual hard-fought and somewhat Pyrrhic victory. I know it’s reversed stupidity, but it’s hard to let go.
What good rationalist techniques are there for changing such things?
Ask “what’s bad about obeying?” Imagine a specific concrete instance of obeying, and then carefully observe your automatic, unconscious response. What bad thing do you expect is going to happen?
Most likely, you will get a response that says something about who you are as a person: your social image, like, “then I’ll be weak”. You can then ask how you learned that obeying makes someone weak… which may be an experience like your peers teasing you (or someone else) for obeying. You can then rationally examine that experience and determine whether you still think you have valid evidence for reaching that conclusion about obedience.
Please note, however, that you cannot kill an emotional decision like this without actually examining your own evidence for the proposition, as well as against it. The mere knowledge that your rule is irrational is not sufficient to modify it. You need to access (and re-assess) the actual memor(ies) the rule is based on.
Recognizing that “I might follow, but I must never obey” is an emotional rule is already a good first step, much better than trying to rationalize it.
I’ve recognized that same pattern in myself—a bad feeling in response to the idea of following / obeying even when it’s an objectively good idea to do so. I imagined an “asshole with a time machine” who would follow me around, observe what I did (buy a ham sandwitch for lunch, enter a book store...), go back in time a few seconds before my decision and order me to do it.
Once I realized I was much more angry against this hypothetical asshole than it was reasonable to, I tried getting rid of that anger. I guess I succeeded (the idea doesn’t bug me as much), but I don’t know if it means I won’t have any more psychological resistance to obeying. I am probably still pretty biased towards individualism / giving more value to my opinion just because it’s my own, but I’d like to find ways to get rid of that..
“What good rationalist techniques are there for changing such things?”
Carefully examining the potential reasons for going along with someone else. Emile’s point below is a very good one.
‘Obedience’ implies that we must go along with what someone says we should do. It’s much better to think (hopefully accurately) that we’ve choosing to do something which coincidentally is also what someone has suggested. We don’t need to choose to obey to go along.
Carefully examining the justifications for actions is also important. If there are compelling reasons to do X, the fact that we’ve been “ordered” to do X is irrelevant, just as being ordered NOT to do X is.
Carefully examining the justifications for actions is also important. If there are compelling reasons to do X, the fact that we’ve been “ordered” to do X is irrelevant, just as being ordered NOT to do X is.
Unfortunately, “doing what they say” tend to make people believe they are the top dog.
And a bit too many people are prompt to get this idea, reluctant to abandon it, and abuse it to no end.
So, pragmatically, sometimes it’s better to find another way to get the desired result, or at least delay action to diminish that bad association.
In my own mind, the emotive rule “I might follow, but I must never obey” is built over a long childhood war and an eventual hard-fought and somewhat Pyrrhic victory. I know it’s reversed stupidity, but it’s hard to let go.
Really? I’ve always thought my similar rule was embedded in my DNA.
Stating that you are not obeying and that you are take a particular course of action because it is a good idea seems to work/help some people.
Realize that the anti-collectivist pull is an explotable weakness it leaves you vulnerable to people who are perceptive and want to harm you. Some would say that you should just avoid getting people to want to harm you, however a consequence is that you would have to avoid standing up to people who harm the world, people you care for and some time yourself.
To be honest, I suspect a lot of those folks, and I include myself here, were anti-collectivists first.
In my own mind, the emotive rule “I might follow, but I must never obey” is built over a long childhood war and an eventual hard-fought and somewhat Pyrrhic victory. I know it’s reversed stupidity, but it’s hard to let go.
What good rationalist techniques are there for changing such things?
Ask “what’s bad about obeying?” Imagine a specific concrete instance of obeying, and then carefully observe your automatic, unconscious response. What bad thing do you expect is going to happen?
Most likely, you will get a response that says something about who you are as a person: your social image, like, “then I’ll be weak”. You can then ask how you learned that obeying makes someone weak… which may be an experience like your peers teasing you (or someone else) for obeying. You can then rationally examine that experience and determine whether you still think you have valid evidence for reaching that conclusion about obedience.
Please note, however, that you cannot kill an emotional decision like this without actually examining your own evidence for the proposition, as well as against it. The mere knowledge that your rule is irrational is not sufficient to modify it. You need to access (and re-assess) the actual memor(ies) the rule is based on.
Recognizing that “I might follow, but I must never obey” is an emotional rule is already a good first step, much better than trying to rationalize it.
I’ve recognized that same pattern in myself—a bad feeling in response to the idea of following / obeying even when it’s an objectively good idea to do so. I imagined an “asshole with a time machine” who would follow me around, observe what I did (buy a ham sandwitch for lunch, enter a book store...), go back in time a few seconds before my decision and order me to do it.
Once I realized I was much more angry against this hypothetical asshole than it was reasonable to, I tried getting rid of that anger. I guess I succeeded (the idea doesn’t bug me as much), but I don’t know if it means I won’t have any more psychological resistance to obeying. I am probably still pretty biased towards individualism / giving more value to my opinion just because it’s my own, but I’d like to find ways to get rid of that..
“What good rationalist techniques are there for changing such things?”
Carefully examining the potential reasons for going along with someone else. Emile’s point below is a very good one.
‘Obedience’ implies that we must go along with what someone says we should do. It’s much better to think (hopefully accurately) that we’ve choosing to do something which coincidentally is also what someone has suggested. We don’t need to choose to obey to go along.
Carefully examining the justifications for actions is also important. If there are compelling reasons to do X, the fact that we’ve been “ordered” to do X is irrelevant, just as being ordered NOT to do X is.
Unfortunately, “doing what they say” tend to make people believe they are the top dog.
And a bit too many people are prompt to get this idea, reluctant to abandon it, and abuse it to no end.
So, pragmatically, sometimes it’s better to find another way to get the desired result, or at least delay action to diminish that bad association.
Really? I’ve always thought my similar rule was embedded in my DNA.
Stating that you are not obeying and that you are take a particular course of action because it is a good idea seems to work/help some people.
Realize that the anti-collectivist pull is an explotable weakness it leaves you vulnerable to people who are perceptive and want to harm you. Some would say that you should just avoid getting people to want to harm you, however a consequence is that you would have to avoid standing up to people who harm the world, people you care for and some time yourself.