Why does Gandhi deserve a Peace prize? Would that be for telling the Jews to offer themselves to Hitler to be executed and saying “Hitler is not a bad man”, or for responding to the Indian massacres (millions dead) with fasting, or perhaps some still other meritorious action?
It’s probably not accurate to say more than one million people were killed during partition, but some 10 or 20 million people were forcibly moved from their homes, long distances. That’s a lot of lamentable suffering, even if it’s short of genocide.
Post-partition Hindu-Muslim violence, and other kinds of sectarian violence, probably do not approach one million dead.
Both the French and Germans massacred millions contemporaneously, which suggests that Westerners were willing to massacre millions, so long as they have a reason. It seems likely that the British would have done the same if India had sought independence through war, and thus Gandhi’s push for nonviolent tactics averted a potentially tremendous loss of human life.
As for the partition, not only is a single million the highest estimate of the death toll, Gandhi was opposed to it, worked to reduce violence during it, and was assassinated in part because of his friendliness towards Muslims and desire to improve Pakistan-India relations. I do not understand why you deride his fasting, as it appears to have been the most effective tactic available to him, and did actually influence those around him rather than just accrue karma.
I agree with you that Gandhi’s letter to the Jews was probably bad advice, but will also point out that Denmark had a positive experience with nonviolent resistance (whether or not that worked against the Nazis because Danes were Aryan is unknown). However, prizes must be given to humans, and thus people are judged on net rather than for lack of blemishes. I am sure you are aware of reasons for Gandhi to be given the prize, and in the spirit of ahimsa plead you to perform a calming activity then return to this discussion with a clear heart.
Why does Gandhi deserve a Peace prize? Would that be for telling the Jews to offer themselves to Hitler to be executed and saying “Hitler is not a bad man”, or for responding to the Indian massacres (millions dead) with fasting, or perhaps some still other meritorious action?
You left out “the greatest inspiration for manipulative passive-aggression that the world has ever seen!”
I consider your question disingenuous, inappropriate and not nearly as clever as it is intended. That Ghandi had a positive influence towards peacefulness in the civil disobedience in his immediate environment is clear. He also had a powerful influence in making the British look like dicks for being the aggressive ones which is an even greater win for ‘peace’ and gave his side the moral high ground. That he was ineffective in dealing with Hitler is worse than irrelevant. It’s a peace prize and World War II wasn’t a time for being peaceful. Peaceful strategies were contraindicated.
I don’t tend to have much respect for rhetorical questions for which the literal answer to the question refutes the intended point.
That Ghandi had a positive influence towards peacefulness in the civil disobedience in his immediate environment is clear.
Am I missing a joke here to the effect that the Peace prize should be awarded even, or especially, to those who promoted peaceful efforts despite the horrific consequences of such peacefulness (in both examples I gave, the Holocaust and the megadeaths accompanying Indian independence—which might not have happened at all without Ghandi and so can be laid at his door)?
It’s a peace prize and World War II wasn’t a time for being peaceful. Peaceful strategies were contraindicated.
Which is exactly what Ghandi suggested, yet the inclusion of this point suggests you think that it somehow makes Ghandi look good. ??? Again, I suspect I’m missing some subtle joke you’re making.
I consider blaming the Holocaust on Ghandi to be utterly absurd. I don’t know what the cause of your problem with Ghandi is but that claim is just… odd. Ghandi couldn’t have pulled that off if he tried.
Which is exactly what Ghandi suggested, yet the inclusion of this point suggests you think that it somehow makes Ghandi look good. ???
No, it is just part of what makes your ridicule look petty. Ghandi recommending others do what worked for him is an example of misplaced other optimising. Given that he was just a popular figure in an entirely unrelated country and the advice he gave was no more futile than anything else they could have tried to prevent the Nazi’s doing what they did the advice he gave is not especially relevant.
Close to a million people were horribly murdered in partition. Indian independence, like American independence, was a mixed bag. But It’s not clear that the British could have prevented it, they were dead broke at the end of WW2.
Of course that leads one to wonder how influential Gandhi and Quit India actually were.
On the other hand, salt starvation has consequences, especially in a hot climate where diarrheal diseases are common. The salt tax was ended as soon as India became independent.
Illness is a major cause of salt depletion (Black 1953, 305-11). People who are already low on salt are particularly vulnerable. Large quantities of salt can be lost in fever-sweat, in vomit, and most of all in diarrhoea (Marriott 1950, 32-4). This should be continually replenished. Severe diarrhoeas can drain as much as 1 ¾ ounces of salt from the body in a single day, and thus quickly lead to severe dehydration. Without intravenous infusion of saline solution – not an option in the period being considered – recovery would have been unlikely (Souhami and Moxham 1990, 849). However, milder diarrhoeas, which as any traveller can relate are common in India, can over a few days also lead to severe depletion (Marriott 1950, 33). Rehydration can only be effected with the intake of salt. Without this salt, however much water is drunk, recovery is impossible. Many diarrhoeas are self limiting – that is they terminate of their own accord, without drugs, after a few days. Rotavirus diarrhoea, which “is the commonest cause of diarrhoea in children up to 2 years old in the tropics” (Souhami and Moxham, 257), is an important example. It is essential to keep the body from dehydrating, and salt is necessary for this. The main ingredient of modern oral rehydration solutions is salt (257).
Mild salt depletion, resulting from insufficient salt in the diet, produces “extreme lassitude” (Marriott 1950, 40). This will, of course, reduce economic output. For people already on the edge of starvation, insufficient salt will set up a cycle of economic decline.
There is a lot I don’t know about this, but I’m sure you’re right that the salt taxes cost lives. But at independence the taxes had been deeply unpopular for more than a hundred years, so it’s not clear to me whether to credit Gandhi for ending them. I had thought that it would be interesting to know whether they had been phased out in Pakistan as well, where Gandhi is not so popular, but it seems that Nehru ended them a few months before partition.
Why does Gandhi deserve a Peace prize? Would that be for telling the Jews to offer themselves to Hitler to be executed and saying “Hitler is not a bad man”, or for responding to the Indian massacres (millions dead) with fasting, or perhaps some still other meritorious action?
Um, millions? Do you mean massacres by the British, or Hindu-Muslim violence?
It’s probably not accurate to say more than one million people were killed during partition, but some 10 or 20 million people were forcibly moved from their homes, long distances. That’s a lot of lamentable suffering, even if it’s short of genocide.
Post-partition Hindu-Muslim violence, and other kinds of sectarian violence, probably do not approach one million dead.
The latter, obviously. The British, being squishy Western types, would never have gotten anywhere near massacring millions.
Both the French and Germans massacred millions contemporaneously, which suggests that Westerners were willing to massacre millions, so long as they have a reason. It seems likely that the British would have done the same if India had sought independence through war, and thus Gandhi’s push for nonviolent tactics averted a potentially tremendous loss of human life.
As for the partition, not only is a single million the highest estimate of the death toll, Gandhi was opposed to it, worked to reduce violence during it, and was assassinated in part because of his friendliness towards Muslims and desire to improve Pakistan-India relations. I do not understand why you deride his fasting, as it appears to have been the most effective tactic available to him, and did actually influence those around him rather than just accrue karma.
I agree with you that Gandhi’s letter to the Jews was probably bad advice, but will also point out that Denmark had a positive experience with nonviolent resistance (whether or not that worked against the Nazis because Danes were Aryan is unknown). However, prizes must be given to humans, and thus people are judged on net rather than for lack of blemishes. I am sure you are aware of reasons for Gandhi to be given the prize, and in the spirit of ahimsa plead you to perform a calming activity then return to this discussion with a clear heart.
You left out “the greatest inspiration for manipulative passive-aggression that the world has ever seen!”
I consider your question disingenuous, inappropriate and not nearly as clever as it is intended. That Ghandi had a positive influence towards peacefulness in the civil disobedience in his immediate environment is clear. He also had a powerful influence in making the British look like dicks for being the aggressive ones which is an even greater win for ‘peace’ and gave his side the moral high ground. That he was ineffective in dealing with Hitler is worse than irrelevant. It’s a peace prize and World War II wasn’t a time for being peaceful. Peaceful strategies were contraindicated.
I don’t tend to have much respect for rhetorical questions for which the literal answer to the question refutes the intended point.
Am I missing a joke here to the effect that the Peace prize should be awarded even, or especially, to those who promoted peaceful efforts despite the horrific consequences of such peacefulness (in both examples I gave, the Holocaust and the megadeaths accompanying Indian independence—which might not have happened at all without Ghandi and so can be laid at his door)?
Which is exactly what Ghandi suggested, yet the inclusion of this point suggests you think that it somehow makes Ghandi look good. ??? Again, I suspect I’m missing some subtle joke you’re making.
I consider blaming the Holocaust on Ghandi to be utterly absurd. I don’t know what the cause of your problem with Ghandi is but that claim is just… odd. Ghandi couldn’t have pulled that off if he tried.
No, it is just part of what makes your ridicule look petty. Ghandi recommending others do what worked for him is an example of misplaced other optimising. Given that he was just a popular figure in an entirely unrelated country and the advice he gave was no more futile than anything else they could have tried to prevent the Nazi’s doing what they did the advice he gave is not especially relevant.
Close to a million people were horribly murdered in partition. Indian independence, like American independence, was a mixed bag. But It’s not clear that the British could have prevented it, they were dead broke at the end of WW2.
Of course that leads one to wonder how influential Gandhi and Quit India actually were.
On the other hand, salt starvation has consequences, especially in a hot climate where diarrheal diseases are common. The salt tax was ended as soon as India became independent.
There is a lot I don’t know about this, but I’m sure you’re right that the salt taxes cost lives. But at independence the taxes had been deeply unpopular for more than a hundred years, so it’s not clear to me whether to credit Gandhi for ending them. I had thought that it would be interesting to know whether they had been phased out in Pakistan as well, where Gandhi is not so popular, but it seems that Nehru ended them a few months before partition.