According to such a view, it is possible that when John asserts “Stealing is wrong” he is saying something true, but that when Jenny asserts “Stealing is wrong” she is saying something false.
would seem to be trivially true, if they are in fact talking about sentences there. Just have Jenny be speaking a foreign language that contains the same symbols with a different meaning. By that standard, anything anyone says ever could safely be considered relative.
On the other hand if they’re talking about propositions then it would seem to be trivially false, because propositions have truth values.
They are talking about propositions, and the point is that the sentence “Stealing is wrong” expresses different propositions when uttered by different people, just like “I’m sleepy” does. That’s what indexicality is!
That’s what I meant by “talking about sentences”. Any sentence can express different propositions when uttered by different people. Just have people speaking different languages. So clearly “means different things when said by different people” isn’t half specific enough to have any dire metaethical implications.
We are speaking the same language. Yet we express different propositions when we say “I’m sitting at a table.” This is not trivial; for example, various other sentences do not have this property. So the SEP quote, once interpreted correctly, is non-trivial, too, because it is quite clear that the writer did not intend your “speaking different languages” interpretation.
Also, you can divorce a technical notion of a sentence from that of a string of sounds; sentencehood might be a two-place predicate of a string and a language.
But I could easily claim that the way strings like “me” and “here” change their meanings depending on context just shows that we do not always speak the same language. I could think of a language as just being a mapping from symbols to propositions, in which case any variation in propositions expressed means that it is not the same language.
You could argue that there is some kind of mapping to an intermediate state we have in common: symbol -> intermediate -> proposition where symbol -> intermediate is your “language”. But then I would ask why anyone should care about that particular intermediate state, and whether that intermediate state can be compellingly or uniquely defined with respect to words like “wrong”.
But I could easily claim that the way strings like “me” and “here” change their meanings depending on context just shows that we do not always speak the same language.
Then you are employing the word “language” in an idiosyncratic, confusing, and, in my opinion, not very useful way. Note that we also switch languages depending on where we are (“here”) and, in fact, continuously all the time (“now”). Good luck building a theory on that.
You might want to look up the notion of a Kaplanian character, which is precisely the intermediate level that you’re suggesting. A character is a function from contexts of utterance to propositions, and the (language-relative) meaning of a sentence is such a character, so, as you say, you could think of a language as a relation between strings and characters (not a function, because of ambiguity). In that picture, an expression is called “indexical” when its character is not a constant function.
Why we should care about that? Because it’s useful in explaining why we understand each other despite the fact that we don’t express the same propositions with one and the same sentence all the time, I suppose.
So the claim that “wrong” is indexical is certainly meaningful and non-trivial. Whether it’s correct is another matter. (I think it isn’t.)
I could think of a language as just being a mapping from symbols to propositions, in which case any variation in propositions expressed means that it is not the same language.
If that’s what counts as a language, I think we should deny the existence of languages:
“Rather than take for granite that Ace talks straight, a listener must be on guard for an occasional entre nous and me...or a long face no see. In a roustabout way, he will maneuver until he selects the ideal phrase for the situation, hitting the nail right on the thumb. The careful conversationalist might try to mix it up with him in a baffle of wits. In quest of this pinochle of success, I have often wrecked my brain for a clowning achievement, but Ace’s chickens always come home to roast. From time to time, Ace will, in a jersksome way, monotonise the conversation with witticisms too humorous to mention. It’s high noon someone beat him at his own game, but I have never done it; cross my eyes and hope to die, he always wins thumbs down.” From A Nice Derangement of Epitaphs
Yet we express different propositions when we say “I’m sitting at a table.”
Well, if that’s the way to read the SEP quote, then it does look trivially true. At least as trivial as this claim:
It is possible that when John says “It is raining today”, he is saying something true, while when Jenny says “The dog is brown” she is saying something false.
The non-trivial reading would have to be that John and Jenny are asserting the same proposition, but that Jenny’s assertion is true while John’s is false.
On the other hand if they’re talking about propositions then it would seem to be trivially false, because propositions have truth values.
It doesn’t follow from the fact that propositions have truth values that the SEP quote is trivially false. “Stealing is wrong” as asserted by John and “Stealing is wrong” as asserted by Jenny both have truth values, they just don’t have the same truth values. You need another premise.
By “if they’re talking about propositions” I meant assuming that they mean “Stealing is wrong” to refer to a particular proposition (ie. asserting that John and Jenny are stating the same proposition) rather than a sentence (string of words).
Right, so you’d need a premise like “A given proposition can only have one truth value”. That’s not trivial though, and it’s been the subject of historical debate. For example, “Hen is sitting” is true...and false....and true again. You can work around that by saying “propositions come with time indexes” or something, but that’s far from trivial. Why can’t differences in speaker have the same effect?
So the SEP quote may be trivially false under a certain understanding of ‘proposition’ but I take it the issue of how to understand propositions is part of what the SEP quote intends to raise.
That SEP page is curious, because this:
would seem to be trivially true, if they are in fact talking about sentences there. Just have Jenny be speaking a foreign language that contains the same symbols with a different meaning. By that standard, anything anyone says ever could safely be considered relative.
On the other hand if they’re talking about propositions then it would seem to be trivially false, because propositions have truth values.
They are talking about propositions, and the point is that the sentence “Stealing is wrong” expresses different propositions when uttered by different people, just like “I’m sleepy” does. That’s what indexicality is!
That’s what I meant by “talking about sentences”. Any sentence can express different propositions when uttered by different people. Just have people speaking different languages. So clearly “means different things when said by different people” isn’t half specific enough to have any dire metaethical implications.
We are speaking the same language. Yet we express different propositions when we say “I’m sitting at a table.” This is not trivial; for example, various other sentences do not have this property. So the SEP quote, once interpreted correctly, is non-trivial, too, because it is quite clear that the writer did not intend your “speaking different languages” interpretation.
Also, you can divorce a technical notion of a sentence from that of a string of sounds; sentencehood might be a two-place predicate of a string and a language.
But I could easily claim that the way strings like “me” and “here” change their meanings depending on context just shows that we do not always speak the same language. I could think of a language as just being a mapping from symbols to propositions, in which case any variation in propositions expressed means that it is not the same language.
You could argue that there is some kind of mapping to an intermediate state we have in common:
symbol -> intermediate -> propositionwheresymbol -> intermediateis your “language”. But then I would ask why anyone should care about that particular intermediate state, and whether that intermediate state can be compellingly or uniquely defined with respect to words like “wrong”.Then you are employing the word “language” in an idiosyncratic, confusing, and, in my opinion, not very useful way. Note that we also switch languages depending on where we are (“here”) and, in fact, continuously all the time (“now”). Good luck building a theory on that.
You might want to look up the notion of a Kaplanian character, which is precisely the intermediate level that you’re suggesting. A character is a function from contexts of utterance to propositions, and the (language-relative) meaning of a sentence is such a character, so, as you say, you could think of a language as a relation between strings and characters (not a function, because of ambiguity). In that picture, an expression is called “indexical” when its character is not a constant function.
Why we should care about that? Because it’s useful in explaining why we understand each other despite the fact that we don’t express the same propositions with one and the same sentence all the time, I suppose.
So the claim that “wrong” is indexical is certainly meaningful and non-trivial. Whether it’s correct is another matter. (I think it isn’t.)
If that’s what counts as a language, I think we should deny the existence of languages:
“Rather than take for granite that Ace talks straight, a listener must be on guard for an occasional entre nous and me...or a long face no see. In a roustabout way, he will maneuver until he selects the ideal phrase for the situation, hitting the nail right on the thumb. The careful conversationalist might try to mix it up with him in a baffle of wits. In quest of this pinochle of success, I have often wrecked my brain for a clowning achievement, but Ace’s chickens always come home to roast. From time to time, Ace will, in a jersksome way, monotonise the conversation with witticisms too humorous to mention. It’s high noon someone beat him at his own game, but I have never done it; cross my eyes and hope to die, he always wins thumbs down.” From A Nice Derangement of Epitaphs
Well, if that’s the way to read the SEP quote, then it does look trivially true. At least as trivial as this claim:
The non-trivial reading would have to be that John and Jenny are asserting the same proposition, but that Jenny’s assertion is true while John’s is false.
It doesn’t follow from the fact that propositions have truth values that the SEP quote is trivially false. “Stealing is wrong” as asserted by John and “Stealing is wrong” as asserted by Jenny both have truth values, they just don’t have the same truth values. You need another premise.
By “if they’re talking about propositions” I meant assuming that they mean “Stealing is wrong” to refer to a particular proposition (ie. asserting that John and Jenny are stating the same proposition) rather than a sentence (string of words).
Right, so you’d need a premise like “A given proposition can only have one truth value”. That’s not trivial though, and it’s been the subject of historical debate. For example, “Hen is sitting” is true...and false....and true again. You can work around that by saying “propositions come with time indexes” or something, but that’s far from trivial. Why can’t differences in speaker have the same effect?
So the SEP quote may be trivially false under a certain understanding of ‘proposition’ but I take it the issue of how to understand propositions is part of what the SEP quote intends to raise.
It’s not trivially false because philosophers take a sentence that appears to be in certain language to have its normal meaning in that language.
It’s not trivially true because identical sentences can have different truth values when spoken by different people, eg “my name is John”
I guess the idea is that assertions about morality are not propositions in that sense?