You are right that people sometimes need time to adapt their beliefs. That is why the original article kept mentioning that the point was to construct a line of retreat for them; to make it easier on them to realize the truth.
I know! That is what I have been saying from the start. I agree with the idea. My dissent is that I do not think the author’s method truly follows this methodology. I do not think that telling people “it is ok there is no God the universe can still be moral” constructs a line of retreat. I think it over simplifies why people have faith in God.
And just to make sure, and you clear of the differences between a method and a methodology?
Around here, rhetoric is considered one of the Dark Arts. Rationalists are not the people who are recklessly forcing atheism without regard for consequences. See raising the sanity waterline. Religion is a dead canary and we are trying to pump out the gas, not just hide the canary.
Rhetoric can be used as force, but to reduce it to “dark arts” is reductionist. Just as to not see the force being used by rationalists is also reductionist. Anyone who wants to destory/remove someting is by definition using force. Anyone who wants to destory/remove someting is by definition using force. Religion is not a dead canary, it is a missued tool.
The purely rationalist position is a newer adaptation of the might makes right ideology.
This is just a bullshit flame. If you are going to accuse people of violence, show your work.
No, I am not flaming, at least not be the defintion of rationalists on this blog. Fact is intellectual force. Rationalists want to use facts to force people to conform to what they believe. Might is right does not nessecairly mean using violence; it just means you beleive the stronger force is correct. You believe yourself intellecutally stronger than people who believe in a diety, and thus right while they are wrong.
Rhetoric can be used as force, but to reduce it to “dark arts” is reductionist. Just as to not see the force being used by rationalists is also reductionist.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by “reductionist”? You seem to be using it as an epithet, and I honestly don’t understand the connection between the way you’re using the word in those two sentences.
On LessWrong we generally draw a distinction between honest, white-hat writing/speaking techniques that make one’s arguments clearer and dishonest techniques that manipulate the reader/listener (“Dark Arts”). Most rhetoric, especially political or religious rhetoric, contains some of the latter.
Rationalists want to use facts to force people to conform to what they believe
Again, this is just not what we’re about. There’s a huge difference between giving people rationality skills so that they are better at drawing conclusions based on their observations and telling them to believe what we believe.
Can you taboo “force”? That might help this discussion move to more fertile ground.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by “reductionist”? You seem to be using it as an epithet, and I honestly don’t understand the connection between the way you’re using the word in those two sentences.
Reductionist generally means you are over-extending an idea beyond its context or that you are omitting too many variables in the discussion of a topic. In this case I mean the latter. To say that rhetoric is simply wrong and that “white-hat writing/speaking” is right is too black and white. It is reductionist. You assume that it is possible to communicate without using what you call “the dark arts.” If you want me to believe that show your work.
Again, this is just not what we’re about. There’s a huge difference between giving people rationality skills so that they are better at drawing conclusions based on their observations and telling them to believe what we believe.
“Giving people skills” they do not ask for is forcing it on them. It is an act of force.
Reductionist generally means you are over-extending an idea beyond its context or that you are omitting too many variables in the discussion of a topic.
I wonder if there is actually a contingent of people who have Boyi’s “overextending/omitting variables” definition as a connotation for “reductionist,” and to what extent this affects how they view reductionist philosophy. It would certainly explain why “reductionist” is sometimes used as a snarl word.
Ok generally was a bad word. I checked out the wiki and the primary definition there is not one I am familiar with. The definition of theoretical reductionism found on wiki is more related to my use of the term (methodological too). What i call reductionism is trying to create a grand theory (an all encompassing theory). In sociological literature there is pretty strong critique of grand theories. If you would like to check me on this, you could look at t”the sociological imagination” by C Wright Mills. The critiques are basically what I listed above. In trying to create a grand theory it is usually at the cost of over simplifying the system that is under speculation. That is what I call reductionist.
To say that rhetoric is simply wrong and that “white-hat writing/speaking” is right is too black and white.
I don’t think it’s black and white; there is a continuum between clear communication and manipulation. But beware of the fallacy of gray: just because everything has a tinge of darkness, that doesn’t make it black—some things are very Dark Artsy, others are not. I do think it is possible to communicate without manipulative writing/speaking. Just to pick a random example, Khan Academy videos. In them, the speaker uses a combination of clear language and visuals to communicate facts. He does not use dishonesty, emotional manipulation, or other techniques associated with dark artsy rhetoric to do this.
“Giving people skills” they do not ask for is forcing it on them. It is an act of force.
He asked you to taboo “force” to avoid bringing in its connotations. Please resend that thought without using any of “force” “might” “violence” etc. What are you trying to say?
If that is what you mean by force, you coming here and telling us your ideas is “an act of force” too. In fact, by that definition, nearly all communication is “an act of force”. So what? Is there something actually wrong with “giving people ideas or tools they didn’t ask for”?
I’m going to assume that you mean it’s bad to give people ideas they will dislike after the fact, like sending people pictures of gore or child porn. I don’t see how teaching people useful skills to improve their lives is at all on the same level as giving them pictures of gore.
Rhetoric can be used as force, but to reduce it to “dark arts” is reductionist. Just as to not see the force being used by rationalists is also reductionist.
You seem to be using reductionism in a different way than I am used to. Please reduce “reductionism” and say what you mean.
Anyone who wants to destory/remove someting is by definition using force. ... Rationalists want to use facts to force people to conform to what they believe. Might is right does not nessecairly mean using violence; it just means you beleive the stronger force is correct. You believe yourself intellecutally stronger than people who believe in a diety, and thus right while they are wrong.
First of all, what I have been trying to say is that, no, rationalists are not interested in “force[ing] people to confrom”. We are interested in improving general epistemology.
I also think you are wrong that using “intellectual force” to force your beliefs on someone is not violence. Using rhetoric is very much violence, not physical, but definitely violence.
Yes we believe ourselves to be more correct and more right than theists, but you seem to be trying to argue “by definition” to sneak in connotations. If there is something wrong with being right, please explain directly without trying to use definitions to relate it to violence. Where does the specific example of believing ourselves more right than theists go wrong?
I know! That is what I have been saying from the start. I agree with the idea. My dissent is that I do not think the author’s method truly follows this methodology. I do not think that telling people “it is ok there is no God the universe can still be moral” constructs a line of retreat. I think it over simplifies why people have faith in God.
And just to make sure, and you clear of the differences between a method and a methodology?
Rhetoric can be used as force, but to reduce it to “dark arts” is reductionist. Just as to not see the force being used by rationalists is also reductionist. Anyone who wants to destory/remove someting is by definition using force. Anyone who wants to destory/remove someting is by definition using force. Religion is not a dead canary, it is a missued tool.
No, I am not flaming, at least not be the defintion of rationalists on this blog. Fact is intellectual force. Rationalists want to use facts to force people to conform to what they believe. Might is right does not nessecairly mean using violence; it just means you beleive the stronger force is correct. You believe yourself intellecutally stronger than people who believe in a diety, and thus right while they are wrong.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by “reductionist”? You seem to be using it as an epithet, and I honestly don’t understand the connection between the way you’re using the word in those two sentences.
On LessWrong we generally draw a distinction between honest, white-hat writing/speaking techniques that make one’s arguments clearer and dishonest techniques that manipulate the reader/listener (“Dark Arts”). Most rhetoric, especially political or religious rhetoric, contains some of the latter.
Again, this is just not what we’re about. There’s a huge difference between giving people rationality skills so that they are better at drawing conclusions based on their observations and telling them to believe what we believe.
Can you taboo “force”? That might help this discussion move to more fertile ground.
Reductionist generally means you are over-extending an idea beyond its context or that you are omitting too many variables in the discussion of a topic. In this case I mean the latter. To say that rhetoric is simply wrong and that “white-hat writing/speaking” is right is too black and white. It is reductionist. You assume that it is possible to communicate without using what you call “the dark arts.” If you want me to believe that show your work.
“Giving people skills” they do not ask for is forcing it on them. It is an act of force.
That isn’t what it generally means.
I wonder if there is actually a contingent of people who have Boyi’s “overextending/omitting variables” definition as a connotation for “reductionist,” and to what extent this affects how they view reductionist philosophy. It would certainly explain why “reductionist” is sometimes used as a snarl word.
FWIW, I have heard the word used in exactly this kind of pejorative sense. I don’t know which usage is more common, generally.
Ok generally was a bad word. I checked out the wiki and the primary definition there is not one I am familiar with. The definition of theoretical reductionism found on wiki is more related to my use of the term (methodological too). What i call reductionism is trying to create a grand theory (an all encompassing theory). In sociological literature there is pretty strong critique of grand theories. If you would like to check me on this, you could look at t”the sociological imagination” by C Wright Mills. The critiques are basically what I listed above. In trying to create a grand theory it is usually at the cost of over simplifying the system that is under speculation. That is what I call reductionist.
I don’t think it’s black and white; there is a continuum between clear communication and manipulation. But beware of the fallacy of gray: just because everything has a tinge of darkness, that doesn’t make it black—some things are very Dark Artsy, others are not. I do think it is possible to communicate without manipulative writing/speaking. Just to pick a random example, Khan Academy videos. In them, the speaker uses a combination of clear language and visuals to communicate facts. He does not use dishonesty, emotional manipulation, or other techniques associated with dark artsy rhetoric to do this.
Please taboo “force.”
He asked you to taboo “force” to avoid bringing in its connotations. Please resend that thought without using any of “force” “might” “violence” etc. What are you trying to say?
If that is what you mean by force, you coming here and telling us your ideas is “an act of force” too. In fact, by that definition, nearly all communication is “an act of force”. So what? Is there something actually wrong with “giving people ideas or tools they didn’t ask for”?
I’m going to assume that you mean it’s bad to give people ideas they will dislike after the fact, like sending people pictures of gore or child porn. I don’t see how teaching people useful skills to improve their lives is at all on the same level as giving them pictures of gore.
You seem to be using reductionism in a different way than I am used to. Please reduce “reductionism” and say what you mean.
First of all, what I have been trying to say is that, no, rationalists are not interested in “force[ing] people to confrom”. We are interested in improving general epistemology.
I also think you are wrong that using “intellectual force” to force your beliefs on someone is not violence. Using rhetoric is very much violence, not physical, but definitely violence.
Yes we believe ourselves to be more correct and more right than theists, but you seem to be trying to argue “by definition” to sneak in connotations. If there is something wrong with being right, please explain directly without trying to use definitions to relate it to violence. Where does the specific example of believing ourselves more right than theists go wrong?