They’re not important if you’re thinking about them in purely utilitarian terms, as in how many people get killed per year by illegal firearms. But they are important if you are concerned about the role of government.
I don’t understand this dichotomy. What do you mean by ‘purely utilitarian’? Doesn’t the role of government also affect, e.g., death rates?
Perhaps your point is that they’re still important, but for more complicated and indirect reasons? E.g., as schelling points or points of precedent. (You could also give, I think, a compelling argument that they’re important precisely because people think they’re important.)
It’s entertainment, and who’s to say entertainment is not important? There’s no privileged value system.
There are certainly privileged value systems: the value systems people actually have. Short-term entertainment may be important, but virtuous (or at least non-destructive) conduct can be made entertaining as well.
I think most people who watch talk shows know that they are watching them for entertainment, not news.
It’s more likely that they’re watching them for entertaining news, or for news-enriched entertainment.
Perhaps your point is that they’re still important, but for more complicated and indirect reasons? E.g., as schelling points or points of precedent. (You could also give, I think, a compelling argument that they’re important precisely because people think they’re important.)
I think he’s suggesting some sort of deontological system. If “big government” is inherently bad, because it infringes on the Rights of the People, you might care about it even if the people don’t utilitarianly need those rights.
I would push the fat man in front of the trolley too in the thought experiment, and so would many rights based libertarians. They just don’t do it in real life. I don’t think they think rights are any more real than utilities are. They think it is a better form of government, to hold that people have inviolable rights even when there are compelling arguments in favor of violating those rights.
But more importantly, why are you being smug about this? Some people value being able to own firearms even at a steep cost to others. Some people, like communists, value economic equality across the population. It is not privileging the question if they value something more than you do. In fact, if that is the case, we should frown upon customized news feeds in general.
Brainoil, I’m pleased to hear your argument is more nuanced than MugaSofer suggested. It helps redeem the practice of steelmanning, which is not just about making discussions more civil and nuanced but also about becoming more accurate at predicting others’ views. Utilitarians can accept ‘rights’ views, if they either reify rights and assign high value to consequences in which they are satisfied, or treat ‘rights’ as a heuristic that usefully approximates the true moral theory. So perhaps instead of talking about which abstract moral theory is the Right One, we should focus on more object-level questions like ‘Which human preferences are more satisfied by debating gay marriage than by ignoring it, and how strong are those preferences relative to their competitor-values?’
It is not privileging the question if they value something more than you do.
Sure. (Though many values people have are probably a causal product of which questions they privilege.)
Doesn’t the role of government also affect, e.g., death rates?
Of course, but the reason that rights based libertarians oppose gun control is not utilitarianism. A rights based libertarian would oppose gun control even if the utilitarian argument for it was obviously true. Such a person would not consider this question a privileged question.
I don’t understand this dichotomy. What do you mean by ‘purely utilitarian’? Doesn’t the role of government also affect, e.g., death rates?
Perhaps your point is that they’re still important, but for more complicated and indirect reasons? E.g., as schelling points or points of precedent. (You could also give, I think, a compelling argument that they’re important precisely because people think they’re important.)
There are certainly privileged value systems: the value systems people actually have. Short-term entertainment may be important, but virtuous (or at least non-destructive) conduct can be made entertaining as well.
It’s more likely that they’re watching them for entertaining news, or for news-enriched entertainment.
I think he’s suggesting some sort of deontological system. If “big government” is inherently bad, because it infringes on the Rights of the People, you might care about it even if the people don’t utilitarianly need those rights.
Man, reality is so much less interesting than my magical kingdom of loyal steelmen.
I would push the fat man in front of the trolley too in the thought experiment, and so would many rights based libertarians. They just don’t do it in real life. I don’t think they think rights are any more real than utilities are. They think it is a better form of government, to hold that people have inviolable rights even when there are compelling arguments in favor of violating those rights.
But more importantly, why are you being smug about this? Some people value being able to own firearms even at a steep cost to others. Some people, like communists, value economic equality across the population. It is not privileging the question if they value something more than you do. In fact, if that is the case, we should frown upon customized news feeds in general.
Brainoil, I’m pleased to hear your argument is more nuanced than MugaSofer suggested. It helps redeem the practice of steelmanning, which is not just about making discussions more civil and nuanced but also about becoming more accurate at predicting others’ views. Utilitarians can accept ‘rights’ views, if they either reify rights and assign high value to consequences in which they are satisfied, or treat ‘rights’ as a heuristic that usefully approximates the true moral theory. So perhaps instead of talking about which abstract moral theory is the Right One, we should focus on more object-level questions like ‘Which human preferences are more satisfied by debating gay marriage than by ignoring it, and how strong are those preferences relative to their competitor-values?’
Sure. (Though many values people have are probably a causal product of which questions they privilege.)
One way to think of rights is as ethical injunctions for governments, and depending on the right others, against violating them.
Of course, but the reason that rights based libertarians oppose gun control is not utilitarianism. A rights based libertarian would oppose gun control even if the utilitarian argument for it was obviously true. Such a person would not consider this question a privileged question.
You can quote by putting a “>” in front of the paragraph you’re quoting, it’ll make your comments more readable.