Of course what “the cool kids” are actually talking about is more like a Divine Right of People; it’s got nothing to do with treating people differently when there’s a mass of them. And of course adding the word “divine” is nothing more than a handy way of making it sound sillier than it otherwise would (whereas in “Divine Right of Kings” it is a word with an actual meaning; the power of kings was literally thought to be of divine origin).
So, removing some of the spin, what you’re apparently saying is that “let’s treat all people as having equal rights” seems as silly to you as “let’s suppose that one person in each country is appointed by a divine superbeing to rule over all the others”. Well, OK.
Equal treatment before the law does not necessarily mean that individuals’ interests are weighted equally.
It means that people are treated unequally only according to differences that are actually relevant. (Of course then the argument shifts to which differences are relevant; but at least then one actually has to argue for their relevance rather than simply assuming it on traditional grounds.)
Having said all of which, I agree that the usual arguments for equal weighting completely fail to show that a person shouldn’t give higher weighting to herself, her family, her friends, etc.
Of course what “the cool kids” are actually talking about is more like a Divine Right of People; it’s got nothing to do with treating people differently when there’s a mass of them.
The state in which I live has statute law initiatives, so yes, people actually do ‘rule’ only if there is a large enough mass of them. Individually, I have no such (legal) right.
And of course adding the word “divine” is nothing more than a handy way of making it sound sillier than it otherwise would (whereas in “Divine Right of Kings” it is a word with an actual meaning; the power of kings was literally thought to be of divine origin).
Speaking of dubious origins:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...
I am in complete agreement with the following:
It means that people are treated unequally only according to differences that are actually relevant. (Of course then the argument shifts to which differences are relevant; but at least then one actually has to argue for their relevance rather than simply assuming it on traditional grounds.)
Having said all of which, I agree that the usual arguments for equal weighting completely fail to show that a person shouldn’t give higher weighting to herself, her family, her friends, etc.
In any case, the point of my comment was not to bring up politics, but to show the incompatibility of typical intuitions with regards to how one should treat family and friends compared to strangers with what (the most popular flavors of) utilitarianism seems to indicate is ‘correct’.
I have argued with utilitarians several times on Less Wrong and the discussions seem to follow the same sequence of backpedalling. First they claim utilitarianism is true. Then, when I ask and they are unable to conceive of an experiment that would verify or falsify it, they claim that it isn’t the kind of thing that has a truth-value, but that it is a description of their preferences. Next, I demonstrate that relying on revealed preference shows that virtually nobody actually has utilitarian preferences. Lastly, they claim that intuition gives us good reason go with (even if it isn’t True) utilitarianism. My response to NancyLebovitz in this thread is yet another attempt to show that, no, it really isn’t intuitive.
Is this an accurate description of what is going on or am I mind-killed on the subject of normative ethics (or both, or neither)?
When you first used the phrase “Divine Right of Crowds” you immediately explained in parentheses that you meant “human rights” or something similar. Now you seem to be talking about democracy instead. The two aren’t the same, though probably approval of one is correlated with approval of the other.
Anyway, “crowds” in the literal sense still aren’t involved (it needs N people to get something voted on, but that doesn’t require them to be colocated or to know one another or anything else crowd-like other than sheer numbers; and if you’re now using “Divine Right of Crowds” to mean “a political system that tries to favour outcomes preferred by more people rather than fewer” then, again, I suggest that you’re picking terminology simply to make the other side look as silly as possible.
Speaking of dubious origins: [...]
It is possible that those words from the Declaration of Independence show that in the 18th century people believed in something like a “Divine Right of Crowds”. (It’s not entirely obvious, though. Perhaps they actually just believed in a Right of Crowds and thought what they said would sound better if they included “created” and “by their Creator”; compare the mention of a Creator at the end of some editions of the Origin of Species, or Einstein’s “God does not play dice”.)
But that doesn’t mean that people who now favour democracy, or human rights, or independence of the US from the UK, have to believe (or commonly do believe) that those things are divinely ordained. Similarly, there are people now who want kings without believing in a Divine Right of Kings, and pretending that they do would be a shabby rhetorical trick.
[...] incompatibility of typical intuitions [...] with what (the most popular flavors of) utilitarianism seems to indicate [...]
Yup, there are indeed such incompatibilities (though I think one could make a reasonable argument that, given human nature, overall utility is likely to be higher in a society where people care more about themselves and those closer to them than in one where they truly care equally about everyone. Surely not nearly so much more as our intuitions lead to, though.
the same sequence of backpedalling
I’ll take your word for it, but I’m a bit surprised: I’d have thought an appreciable fraction of LWers advocating utilitarianism would start from the position that it’s an expression of their preferences rather than an objective fact about the world.
(For my part, not that it particularly matters, I do indeed care most about myself, and less about people less connected to me, physically further from me, more unlike me, etc., but I find that as I reflect more on my preferences in any given case they shift nearer to egalitarianism, though they often don’t get all the way. Something like utilitarianism seems like a pretty decent approximation to what I’d want in law.)
am I mind-killed [...]?
I can’t tell, obviously, but I do tend to think that things like switching ground without noticing (“human rights” --> democracy) and insisting on using question-begging language (“Divine Right of Crowds”) are often signs of someone not thinking as clearly as they might be.
Of course what “the cool kids” are actually talking about is more like a Divine Right of People; it’s got nothing to do with treating people differently when there’s a mass of them. And of course adding the word “divine” is nothing more than a handy way of making it sound sillier than it otherwise would (whereas in “Divine Right of Kings” it is a word with an actual meaning; the power of kings was literally thought to be of divine origin).
So, removing some of the spin, what you’re apparently saying is that “let’s treat all people as having equal rights” seems as silly to you as “let’s suppose that one person in each country is appointed by a divine superbeing to rule over all the others”. Well, OK.
It means that people are treated unequally only according to differences that are actually relevant. (Of course then the argument shifts to which differences are relevant; but at least then one actually has to argue for their relevance rather than simply assuming it on traditional grounds.)
Having said all of which, I agree that the usual arguments for equal weighting completely fail to show that a person shouldn’t give higher weighting to herself, her family, her friends, etc.
The state in which I live has statute law initiatives, so yes, people actually do ‘rule’ only if there is a large enough mass of them. Individually, I have no such (legal) right.
Speaking of dubious origins:
I am in complete agreement with the following:
In any case, the point of my comment was not to bring up politics, but to show the incompatibility of typical intuitions with regards to how one should treat family and friends compared to strangers with what (the most popular flavors of) utilitarianism seems to indicate is ‘correct’.
I have argued with utilitarians several times on Less Wrong and the discussions seem to follow the same sequence of backpedalling. First they claim utilitarianism is true. Then, when I ask and they are unable to conceive of an experiment that would verify or falsify it, they claim that it isn’t the kind of thing that has a truth-value, but that it is a description of their preferences. Next, I demonstrate that relying on revealed preference shows that virtually nobody actually has utilitarian preferences. Lastly, they claim that intuition gives us good reason go with (even if it isn’t True) utilitarianism. My response to NancyLebovitz in this thread is yet another attempt to show that, no, it really isn’t intuitive.
Is this an accurate description of what is going on or am I mind-killed on the subject of normative ethics (or both, or neither)?
When you first used the phrase “Divine Right of Crowds” you immediately explained in parentheses that you meant “human rights” or something similar. Now you seem to be talking about democracy instead. The two aren’t the same, though probably approval of one is correlated with approval of the other.
Anyway, “crowds” in the literal sense still aren’t involved (it needs N people to get something voted on, but that doesn’t require them to be colocated or to know one another or anything else crowd-like other than sheer numbers; and if you’re now using “Divine Right of Crowds” to mean “a political system that tries to favour outcomes preferred by more people rather than fewer” then, again, I suggest that you’re picking terminology simply to make the other side look as silly as possible.
It is possible that those words from the Declaration of Independence show that in the 18th century people believed in something like a “Divine Right of Crowds”. (It’s not entirely obvious, though. Perhaps they actually just believed in a Right of Crowds and thought what they said would sound better if they included “created” and “by their Creator”; compare the mention of a Creator at the end of some editions of the Origin of Species, or Einstein’s “God does not play dice”.)
But that doesn’t mean that people who now favour democracy, or human rights, or independence of the US from the UK, have to believe (or commonly do believe) that those things are divinely ordained. Similarly, there are people now who want kings without believing in a Divine Right of Kings, and pretending that they do would be a shabby rhetorical trick.
Yup, there are indeed such incompatibilities (though I think one could make a reasonable argument that, given human nature, overall utility is likely to be higher in a society where people care more about themselves and those closer to them than in one where they truly care equally about everyone. Surely not nearly so much more as our intuitions lead to, though.
I’ll take your word for it, but I’m a bit surprised: I’d have thought an appreciable fraction of LWers advocating utilitarianism would start from the position that it’s an expression of their preferences rather than an objective fact about the world.
(For my part, not that it particularly matters, I do indeed care most about myself, and less about people less connected to me, physically further from me, more unlike me, etc., but I find that as I reflect more on my preferences in any given case they shift nearer to egalitarianism, though they often don’t get all the way. Something like utilitarianism seems like a pretty decent approximation to what I’d want in law.)
I can’t tell, obviously, but I do tend to think that things like switching ground without noticing (“human rights” --> democracy) and insisting on using question-begging language (“Divine Right of Crowds”) are often signs of someone not thinking as clearly as they might be.