I am not “advocating” the old norm in the sense of trying to bring it about. [...] But I am suggesting that were it possible, it might be better.
OK. (That is “advocating” in the sense I had in mind, but I appreciate the distinction you’re making.)
it might be better for women if you simply have no non-marital sex at all.
Well, anything might be true. Let’s have a look at how plausible that is. On the one hand, you have the benefits of being permitted to have sex: in particular, (1) the actual sex, which available evidence suggests most people—women as well as men—consider a very major benefit, and (2) the ability to be better informed before embarking on the (nominally) lifelong commitment of marriage. On the other hand, you have (3a) the fact that some freely-chosen sex will turn out to be bad, and if you can’t make that free choice you avoid the bad as well as the good, (3b) the hope that this will reduce opportunities for what is sometimes called “date rape”—i.e., nonconsensual sex in contexts where consensual sex might have been a live option—and (4) the hope that it will also somehow reduce the incidence of stranger-rape.
The fact that people—women as well as men—do in fact choose to have sex outside marriage suggests that they feel #1 outweighs #3{a,b}, and for what it’s worth that seems fairly obviously true to me. (Though I happen to be male and hence, as you say, may be inclined to give #1 more weight relative to #3 than it deserves.) #4 seems to me like no more than a pipe dream: I see no reason to think that stranger-rape would be any rarer on account of a “no sex before marriage” norm (it’s not like we don’t have a “no rape” norm now, after all), and in so far as rape is about sex rather than power, misogyny, etc., having a larger number of sexually frustrated young men around seems likely to make the problem worse. Even #3b seems pretty doubtful to me unless those social norms go far enough beyond “no sex before marriage” to rule out situations in which rape could happen. (E.g., if it were viewed as monstrous for a man and a woman who are not married ever to be alone together.) And then there’s #2, whose benefit I’ve no idea how to estimate but seems likely to be a big deal.
(For the avoidance of doubt, in suggesting that #2 is a big deal I am not intending to imply that sexual compatibility is the only important thing, or even the most important thing, in a marriage. But it is certainly a thing.)
I think you have some valid considerations here, but it is only a part of the picture, and I think the no non-marital sex idea is more reasonable than you are suggesting.
But I’m going to excuse myself from this discussion; I think bringing it up on LW was a mistake on my part.
OK. (That is “advocating” in the sense I had in mind, but I appreciate the distinction you’re making.)
Well, anything might be true. Let’s have a look at how plausible that is. On the one hand, you have the benefits of being permitted to have sex: in particular, (1) the actual sex, which available evidence suggests most people—women as well as men—consider a very major benefit, and (2) the ability to be better informed before embarking on the (nominally) lifelong commitment of marriage. On the other hand, you have (3a) the fact that some freely-chosen sex will turn out to be bad, and if you can’t make that free choice you avoid the bad as well as the good, (3b) the hope that this will reduce opportunities for what is sometimes called “date rape”—i.e., nonconsensual sex in contexts where consensual sex might have been a live option—and (4) the hope that it will also somehow reduce the incidence of stranger-rape.
The fact that people—women as well as men—do in fact choose to have sex outside marriage suggests that they feel #1 outweighs #3{a,b}, and for what it’s worth that seems fairly obviously true to me. (Though I happen to be male and hence, as you say, may be inclined to give #1 more weight relative to #3 than it deserves.) #4 seems to me like no more than a pipe dream: I see no reason to think that stranger-rape would be any rarer on account of a “no sex before marriage” norm (it’s not like we don’t have a “no rape” norm now, after all), and in so far as rape is about sex rather than power, misogyny, etc., having a larger number of sexually frustrated young men around seems likely to make the problem worse. Even #3b seems pretty doubtful to me unless those social norms go far enough beyond “no sex before marriage” to rule out situations in which rape could happen. (E.g., if it were viewed as monstrous for a man and a woman who are not married ever to be alone together.) And then there’s #2, whose benefit I’ve no idea how to estimate but seems likely to be a big deal.
(For the avoidance of doubt, in suggesting that #2 is a big deal I am not intending to imply that sexual compatibility is the only important thing, or even the most important thing, in a marriage. But it is certainly a thing.)
I think you have some valid considerations here, but it is only a part of the picture, and I think the no non-marital sex idea is more reasonable than you are suggesting.
But I’m going to excuse myself from this discussion; I think bringing it up on LW was a mistake on my part.
OK; no problem. It was interesting.