Okay, so I’ll try to learn from recent previous experience and not flame.
Deep breath.
Very partial list of how population growth can bring down Europe, the Americas, China, and everyplace else:
Waves of refugees straining the local infrastructure past the breaking point.
Demand for petroleum rising faster than the rate of new oil reserves being discovered and faster than alternative technologies can be developed and brought to market on a sufficient scale.
Ditto for accessible deposits of some metals.
Pollution.
Pandemics spreading from regions of high population density to everywhere.
Deforestation.
Global warming and sea level rise.
Competition for resources leading to wars.
Environmentalists like to view this as our species being irresponsible. They’re not seeing the big picture. At any given level of resources and technology, there is a finite carrying capacity. If we exceed that carrying capacity, we will have a die-off soon after no matter how “responsible” we are. If there were only a few million of us on the planet we could spend our days hunting endangered species from 1 mile-per-gallon SUVs that run on coal and melted plastic and still be okay.
Waves of refugees straining the local infrastructure past the breaking point.
It’s not easy to migrate away from Africa and it’s a matter of political willingness to accept “waves of refugees”.
The highest demand of petroleum and metals doesn’t come from those place with high population growth.
A US citizen consumes ten times the amount of energy as a nigerian. And Nigeria is a country that uses a lot of energy for an African nation because it has oil.
A Amercian house cat consumes produces more CO_2 than some Africans.
If we exceed that carrying capacity, we will have a die-off soon after no matter how “responsible” we are.
There no reason that everyone has to die.
But in reflection I grant you that developing alternative energy technology might reduce some risks.
If we exceed that carrying capacity, we will have a die-off soon after no matter how “responsible” we are.
But being responsible can mean using only a tenth as much energy which means you could have ten times as many people.
When it comes to the issue of overpopulation we face the trend that birth rates go down. The problem moves in the right direction. As far as current trends go it’s unlikely that population will double.
It’s not easy to migrate away from Africa and it’s a matter of political willingness to accept “waves of refugees”.
Well, it’s happening in Europe already. The US is having immigration issues of its own as well.
When it comes to the issue of overpopulation we face the trend that birth rates go down. The problem moves in the right direction. As far as current trends go it’s unlikely that population will double.
As I said to Lumifer, birth rates are going down because of wealth, which is driven by technology. As you pointed out, though:
A US citizen ten times the amount of energy as a nigerian.
...wealth is also accompanied by increased resource demand which may cancel out the time that diminished population growth buys us.
That’s all pretty standard scaremongering that has been making the rounds since early 1970s. There were no signs it’s likely to happen then and there are no signs it’s likely to happen now.
A large stable trend of rising resource and energy scarcity (and consequently their prices) across most resources and kinds of energy. Scarcity growing fast enough so that it’s unreasonable to expect that technology will compensate for that.
Granted, these are from biased sources, because most sources are biased. But we must balance that against our own confirmation bias. I don’t have to agree with them on their proposed solutions in order to recognize that there is a credible problem.
Scarcity growing fast enough so that it’s unreasonable to expect that technology will compensate for that.
I think it would be very worthwhile to think about what exactly would be a reasonable rate at which we can expect technology to compensate. That’s what I’m trying to say—not that the scaremongers are right, but that we don’t have good estimates for demand growth versus technological growth. Actually we have excellent estimates for demand growth, it’s the compensating technological growth rates that are problematic to accurately forecast. If we can’t reliably forecast them, I submit that the safe course of action is to pour resources into many different types of basic and applied research instead believing that the current rate of progress will suffice with absolutely no evidence (other than “been okay so far”) to back it up.
Okay, so I’ll try to learn from recent previous experience and not flame.
Deep breath.
Very partial list of how population growth can bring down Europe, the Americas, China, and everyplace else:
Waves of refugees straining the local infrastructure past the breaking point.
Demand for petroleum rising faster than the rate of new oil reserves being discovered and faster than alternative technologies can be developed and brought to market on a sufficient scale.
Ditto for accessible deposits of some metals.
Pollution.
Pandemics spreading from regions of high population density to everywhere.
Deforestation.
Global warming and sea level rise.
Competition for resources leading to wars.
Environmentalists like to view this as our species being irresponsible. They’re not seeing the big picture. At any given level of resources and technology, there is a finite carrying capacity. If we exceed that carrying capacity, we will have a die-off soon after no matter how “responsible” we are. If there were only a few million of us on the planet we could spend our days hunting endangered species from 1 mile-per-gallon SUVs that run on coal and melted plastic and still be okay.
It’s not easy to migrate away from Africa and it’s a matter of political willingness to accept “waves of refugees”. The highest demand of petroleum and metals doesn’t come from those place with high population growth. A US citizen consumes ten times the amount of energy as a nigerian. And Nigeria is a country that uses a lot of energy for an African nation because it has oil.
A Amercian house cat consumes produces more CO_2 than some Africans.
There no reason that everyone has to die.
But in reflection I grant you that developing alternative energy technology might reduce some risks.
But being responsible can mean using only a tenth as much energy which means you could have ten times as many people.
When it comes to the issue of overpopulation we face the trend that birth rates go down. The problem moves in the right direction. As far as current trends go it’s unlikely that population will double.
Well, it’s happening in Europe already. The US is having immigration issues of its own as well.
As I said to Lumifer, birth rates are going down because of wealth, which is driven by technology. As you pointed out, though:
...wealth is also accompanied by increased resource demand which may cancel out the time that diminished population growth buys us.
By the way, the emphasis on Africa is misplaced. It might, as a continent, have the highest growth rates, but most populated countries are outside of Africa, and most of them have grown by more than 20% between 1990 and 2010.
That’s all pretty standard scaremongering that has been making the rounds since early 1970s. There were no signs it’s likely to happen then and there are no signs it’s likely to happen now.
What would be the signs that we would be observing if it were likely to happen?
A large stable trend of rising resource and energy scarcity (and consequently their prices) across most resources and kinds of energy. Scarcity growing fast enough so that it’s unreasonable to expect that technology will compensate for that.
Here then.
Granted, these are from biased sources, because most sources are biased. But we must balance that against our own confirmation bias. I don’t have to agree with them on their proposed solutions in order to recognize that there is a credible problem.
I think it would be very worthwhile to think about what exactly would be a reasonable rate at which we can expect technology to compensate. That’s what I’m trying to say—not that the scaremongers are right, but that we don’t have good estimates for demand growth versus technological growth. Actually we have excellent estimates for demand growth, it’s the compensating technological growth rates that are problematic to accurately forecast. If we can’t reliably forecast them, I submit that the safe course of action is to pour resources into many different types of basic and applied research instead believing that the current rate of progress will suffice with absolutely no evidence (other than “been okay so far”) to back it up.
Let’s continue this discussion here please.