“Heh. I think your theory finds itself in contradiction with empirical reality. Sorry, the reality always wins.”
It only “wins” if the sole concern of a political economy is economic growth. I’ve said pretty clearly that no one can deny that, in that sense, it’s winning. However, it’s doing so by sacrificing human welfare in a way that other systems don’t require—pollution, oppression of free expression, miserable working conditions...the list goes on. You’re continually looking at the economy as if the only figure that matters is income per capita. I don’t think I’ve denied that that’s part of it, but we have quality of life indices for a reason.
“It is not obvious to me at all that the Chinese political system will collapse without that.”
Numerous people—economists and politicians both within and outside of China—have said that, not the specific number I used for example, but that the legitimacy of the CCP government is entirely dependent upon increasing economic growth, as we already have ample evidence to suggest that it, as a planned economy, will not be able to improve quality of living independent of that. I’ll see if I can’t pull up a few quotes to that effect.
“No, this happened in post-Soviet times. The factories were privatized by giving (for free) the ownership shares to the workers. After that process was complete, the factories weren’t state-owned any more, they were owned by the newly-minted shareholders”.
If someone handed you the keys to a car which could barely run, would you go through the expense of getting it back in working condition, or just sell it for parts?
“Ah. So it’s not ownership at all—it’s just a work permit. Or an internal passport. I see no reason to call this “ownership”—why do you think this word fits?”
Tell me, why do you think it doesn’t? Because again, I’m having trouble understanding.
“Again, I think you’re badly misusing the word “ownership”. It doesn’t mean what you think it means :-)”
“You seem to think that there is something wrong voluntary consensual exchanges of things of value. Or do you reject the whole idea of property?”
Well, as you seem to totally reject my idea of ownership, care to give me yours?
“Sure I can, that’s what slavery is. Or if you’re talking about labor potential I can easily take it away by locking you in a cell.”
Yes, but is slavery generally considered a just and viable way to procure labor in a fully democratic society? No; again we can fall back to the Rawlsian veil of ignorance: if I can’t apply the rule of “all people must agree with slavery” to myself (which it seems, by the definition of slavery, that I can’t), then it’s not something people in an egalitarian democratic society will support. And locking me in a cell does nothing to remove my labor from me. You can force me to use it to produce goods for you, but again, that’s slavery, which won’t happen in an egalitarian democratic society. Or even if you don’t force me to work for you, I can still labor to find a way to escape. I fail to see an important distinction between labor and labor potential; they both refer to the ability to do work.
It only “wins” if the sole concern of a political economy is economic growth.
Nope, the concerns of a political economy are irrelevant here.
The contest is between a map and a territory and the territory always wins.
Numerous people … have said that
Yes, I know. But the argument to popularity is not a good way to evaluate forecasts :-/
Well, as you seem to totally reject my idea of ownership, care to give me yours?
Sure. Ownership is a bundle of rights (and each right, of course, has a corresponding obligation on the part of others). What’s exactly in this bundle varies, but typically there will be the right to exclude others (if it’s mine I don’t have to allow others to use it), the right to control, the right to destroy, the right to transfer (sell), etc.
The bundle, as I said, varies. There are limitations on most of these rights depending on your local laws, and some of them are not applicable to certain types of ownership (e.g. if you own a piece of land there is no right to destroy). Borderline cases certainly exist—e.g. you can argue that copyright is a form of property and you can argue that it is not.
You are saying that something like an internal passport gives you a share of “ownership” in all means of production in the society. What does that mean? Which rights do I, personally, have with respect to that which I “own”?
P.S. You haven’t answered the question whether you object to the notion of property in general.
“Nope, the concerns of a political economy are irrelevant here. The contest is between a map and a territory and the territory always wins.”
So, to be clear, you don’t believe that political economy is part of the territory? Really??
“Yes, I know. But the argument to popularity is not a good way to evaluate forecasts :-/”
Some people appreciate an appeal to authority, but I don’t need one to justify what I said. I’ll respond differently to an announcement that you’re going to twist my finger, if you tell me before doing so that you’ll give me a lollipop afterwards if I let you, than I would if you simply told me you were going to twist my finger, right?
“You are saying that something like an internal passport gives you a share of “ownership” in all means of production in the society. What does that mean? Which rights do I, personally, have with respect to that which I “own”?”
Well, labor seems like the obvious component here. Whatever other means of production exist now only exist because someone in the past labored to make them. I’ll concede that I haven’t totally worked out how you’d evenly divide up extra-somatic means of production, i.e. existing private property, but it seems like it ought to be possible to construct a pricing model to evaluate all the means of production in an economy and split that value equally among all participants in that economy.
Shares would represent a compensation for the price assessed of the global means of production by the global market, divided by the number of people in the world, with each person getting one share. This share is an ownership claim because it is exclusive to its original owner (no one is able to take it from me, nor can I take one from anyone else), and I control it (no one can make me use it for a purpose other than one of my choosing). I should’ve asked earlier, are you familiar with the distinction between private property rights and personal property rights? These shares would be an example of the latter, and thus have a different set of ownership rights than the private property rights we tend to focus on now.
P.S. You haven’t answered the question whether you object to the notion of property in general.”
I did on the other comment thread a little while ago, but I’ll say here as well: I’m a consequentialist. If capitalism and private property gets me the end I’m seeking, I’m fine with that. But if it doesn’t, I’m not. Values should be system-neutral.
So, to be clear, you don’t believe that political economy is part of the territory? Really??
Really really :-) Political economy is a description of how the world works. Being a description, it is a map.
This share is an ownership claim.
Let’s do a little gedanken experiment. I hereby give you a piece of paper that represents a share, an ownership claim on your fraction of the global means of production. It is exclusive to you and you control it.
Oh, but say you, it’s fake, it doesn’t represent anything!
OK then. In the system which you describe, what can you do with you “true” ownership claim that you cannot do with the admittedly fake claim which I have just given to you?
If capitalism and private property gets me the end I’m seeking
“Really really :-) Political economy is a description of how the world works. Being a description, it is a map.”
I’ve always thought that ultimately, description is the best that anyone can ever really do. We’ll be getting into epistemology if we go down this route any further; your call on whether or not you want to do that.
“Let’s do a little gedanken experiment. I hereby give you a piece of paper that represents a share, an ownership claim on your fraction of the global means of production. It is exclusive to you and you control it. Oh, but say you, it’s fake, it doesn’t represent anything! OK then. In the system which you describe, what can you do with you “true” ownership claim that you cannot do with the admittedly fake claim which I have just given to you?”
...I’m assuming that the parallel with paper currency is intentional. This is exactly the way in which any system of private property works: the validity of the claim is based on a common social contract. However, as these shares are claims to a publically-owned property, it is a type of personal property, dependent upon some particular formulation of a social contract (stipulating e.g., 1. all material goods are publically-owned, and 2. all people who are capable of conceiving of a vision of the Public Good deserve a share in this publically-owned stock of goods)....I can’t tell if I’m being led somewhere or you missed that completely, though I’m naturally leaning toward the former.
“Can you specify the end you’re seeking?”
In excruciatingly minute detail; suffice to say the most important tenets are egalitarianism, equality, and communitarianism.
ultimately, description is the best that anyone can ever really do.
May I suggest a review of the concepts of the map and the territory?
I can’t tell if I’m being led somewhere or you missed that completely
I think I missed it completely. I just don’t understand what rights does a “claim of ownership” give you. Let me ask the question again: what can you do with it? Let’s take two people, A and B. A has the “claim of ownership”, B does not. They both wake up, walk out onto the street. What can A do that B cannot? Which rights does A have that B does not?
the most important tenets are egalitarianism, equality, and communitarianism.
What happens to people who do not like these tenets?
Would a kibbutz or a hippy commune be an example of a society you want?
“May I suggest a review of the concepts of the map and the territory?”
None is needed; I’m pretty sure that I understand the use of the terms map and territory here. Maps are representations of reality, territories the correspondent reality. I don’t argue against this term pairing, in fact I quite like it, and I’m pretty sure I haven’t violated them in principle. I was just heading in the direction of arguing that all anyone can ever have is a map, so to speak—I’m fundamentally an epistemological idealist. But this is a discussion we could go on about to the end of time.
“I think I missed it completely. I just don’t understand what rights does a “claim of ownership” give you. Let me ask the question again: what can you do with it? Let’s take two people, A and B. A has the “claim of ownership”, B does not. They both wake up, walk out onto the street. What can A do that B cannot? Which rights does A have that B does not?”
I think you might be under a misconception about the idea of market socialism (or my particular version of it, anyway): the only things which don’t have claims of ownership are non-people, in the broad sense. To make the scenario fit, you’d have to ask, “what can A do with A’s claim to ownership that B cannot do with A’s claim to ownership?” B cannot take A’s claim to ownership (be it his labor or the value associated with a single person’s share) and use it to work towards or in any way advance B’s vision of the Public Good if A does not agree with B’s vision of the Public Good. This is the only right/obligation that people in this theoretical can worry about: freedom to exercise agency and vision, and an obligation on the part of each person to respect the exercise of agency and vision of others.
“What happens to people who do not like these tenets?”
They’re free to participate or not participate in my, or any other entity’s, vision of the Public Good, including their own. If a particular vision is in low enough demand, then it likely won’t be achievable due to lack of resources gathered to accomplish it, and any organization around that Public Good will naturally dissolved as people become dissatisfied with it. This gives people an incentive to formulate a vision of the Public Good which is as universally-appealing and inclusive as possible.
In a sense, it’s much like the universalizability issue of the Kantian imperative. I can make any particular vision of the Public Good as specific as I like it, but as I add more and more detail to it, the more opportunities I create to turn people off from it. If my vision of the Public Good revolves around my every specific desire, it’s not likely to attract other people because I will have a different set of specific desires from other people. By contrast, if I can formulate a vision of the Public Good which is composed solely of specific desires that appeal to a lot of people, more people will join me in the pursuit of my vision of the Public Good.
This should all sound quite similar to what we have today, because it is. The difference is that, with the abolition of private property and a democratic ownership of the MoP, there’s a lot more room for many different visions of the Public Good to be realized as no one has anymore ability to impose their Public Good vision on people than anyone else does. I always thought this was a pretty meritocratic system.
A territory may be judged to win or lose according to how it is evaluated. Does the territory tell you that GDPis objectively a better metric than QUALYs?
“Heh. I think your theory finds itself in contradiction with empirical reality. Sorry, the reality always wins.”
It only “wins” if the sole concern of a political economy is economic growth. I’ve said pretty clearly that no one can deny that, in that sense, it’s winning. However, it’s doing so by sacrificing human welfare in a way that other systems don’t require—pollution, oppression of free expression, miserable working conditions...the list goes on. You’re continually looking at the economy as if the only figure that matters is income per capita. I don’t think I’ve denied that that’s part of it, but we have quality of life indices for a reason.
“It is not obvious to me at all that the Chinese political system will collapse without that.”
Numerous people—economists and politicians both within and outside of China—have said that, not the specific number I used for example, but that the legitimacy of the CCP government is entirely dependent upon increasing economic growth, as we already have ample evidence to suggest that it, as a planned economy, will not be able to improve quality of living independent of that. I’ll see if I can’t pull up a few quotes to that effect.
“No, this happened in post-Soviet times. The factories were privatized by giving (for free) the ownership shares to the workers. After that process was complete, the factories weren’t state-owned any more, they were owned by the newly-minted shareholders”.
If someone handed you the keys to a car which could barely run, would you go through the expense of getting it back in working condition, or just sell it for parts?
“Ah. So it’s not ownership at all—it’s just a work permit. Or an internal passport. I see no reason to call this “ownership”—why do you think this word fits?”
Tell me, why do you think it doesn’t? Because again, I’m having trouble understanding.
“Again, I think you’re badly misusing the word “ownership”. It doesn’t mean what you think it means :-)”
“You seem to think that there is something wrong voluntary consensual exchanges of things of value. Or do you reject the whole idea of property?”
Well, as you seem to totally reject my idea of ownership, care to give me yours?
“Sure I can, that’s what slavery is. Or if you’re talking about labor potential I can easily take it away by locking you in a cell.”
Yes, but is slavery generally considered a just and viable way to procure labor in a fully democratic society? No; again we can fall back to the Rawlsian veil of ignorance: if I can’t apply the rule of “all people must agree with slavery” to myself (which it seems, by the definition of slavery, that I can’t), then it’s not something people in an egalitarian democratic society will support. And locking me in a cell does nothing to remove my labor from me. You can force me to use it to produce goods for you, but again, that’s slavery, which won’t happen in an egalitarian democratic society. Or even if you don’t force me to work for you, I can still labor to find a way to escape. I fail to see an important distinction between labor and labor potential; they both refer to the ability to do work.
Nope, the concerns of a political economy are irrelevant here.
The contest is between a map and a territory and the territory always wins.
Yes, I know. But the argument to popularity is not a good way to evaluate forecasts :-/
Sure. Ownership is a bundle of rights (and each right, of course, has a corresponding obligation on the part of others). What’s exactly in this bundle varies, but typically there will be the right to exclude others (if it’s mine I don’t have to allow others to use it), the right to control, the right to destroy, the right to transfer (sell), etc.
The bundle, as I said, varies. There are limitations on most of these rights depending on your local laws, and some of them are not applicable to certain types of ownership (e.g. if you own a piece of land there is no right to destroy). Borderline cases certainly exist—e.g. you can argue that copyright is a form of property and you can argue that it is not.
You are saying that something like an internal passport gives you a share of “ownership” in all means of production in the society. What does that mean? Which rights do I, personally, have with respect to that which I “own”?
P.S. You haven’t answered the question whether you object to the notion of property in general.
“Nope, the concerns of a political economy are irrelevant here. The contest is between a map and a territory and the territory always wins.”
So, to be clear, you don’t believe that political economy is part of the territory? Really??
“Yes, I know. But the argument to popularity is not a good way to evaluate forecasts :-/”
Some people appreciate an appeal to authority, but I don’t need one to justify what I said. I’ll respond differently to an announcement that you’re going to twist my finger, if you tell me before doing so that you’ll give me a lollipop afterwards if I let you, than I would if you simply told me you were going to twist my finger, right?
“You are saying that something like an internal passport gives you a share of “ownership” in all means of production in the society. What does that mean? Which rights do I, personally, have with respect to that which I “own”?”
Well, labor seems like the obvious component here. Whatever other means of production exist now only exist because someone in the past labored to make them. I’ll concede that I haven’t totally worked out how you’d evenly divide up extra-somatic means of production, i.e. existing private property, but it seems like it ought to be possible to construct a pricing model to evaluate all the means of production in an economy and split that value equally among all participants in that economy.
Shares would represent a compensation for the price assessed of the global means of production by the global market, divided by the number of people in the world, with each person getting one share. This share is an ownership claim because it is exclusive to its original owner (no one is able to take it from me, nor can I take one from anyone else), and I control it (no one can make me use it for a purpose other than one of my choosing). I should’ve asked earlier, are you familiar with the distinction between private property rights and personal property rights? These shares would be an example of the latter, and thus have a different set of ownership rights than the private property rights we tend to focus on now.
P.S. You haven’t answered the question whether you object to the notion of property in general.”
I did on the other comment thread a little while ago, but I’ll say here as well: I’m a consequentialist. If capitalism and private property gets me the end I’m seeking, I’m fine with that. But if it doesn’t, I’m not. Values should be system-neutral.
Really really :-) Political economy is a description of how the world works. Being a description, it is a map.
Let’s do a little gedanken experiment. I hereby give you a piece of paper that represents a share, an ownership claim on your fraction of the global means of production. It is exclusive to you and you control it.
Oh, but say you, it’s fake, it doesn’t represent anything!
OK then. In the system which you describe, what can you do with you “true” ownership claim that you cannot do with the admittedly fake claim which I have just given to you?
Can you specify the end you’re seeking?
“Really really :-) Political economy is a description of how the world works. Being a description, it is a map.”
I’ve always thought that ultimately, description is the best that anyone can ever really do. We’ll be getting into epistemology if we go down this route any further; your call on whether or not you want to do that.
“Let’s do a little gedanken experiment. I hereby give you a piece of paper that represents a share, an ownership claim on your fraction of the global means of production. It is exclusive to you and you control it. Oh, but say you, it’s fake, it doesn’t represent anything! OK then. In the system which you describe, what can you do with you “true” ownership claim that you cannot do with the admittedly fake claim which I have just given to you?”
...I’m assuming that the parallel with paper currency is intentional. This is exactly the way in which any system of private property works: the validity of the claim is based on a common social contract. However, as these shares are claims to a publically-owned property, it is a type of personal property, dependent upon some particular formulation of a social contract (stipulating e.g., 1. all material goods are publically-owned, and 2. all people who are capable of conceiving of a vision of the Public Good deserve a share in this publically-owned stock of goods)....I can’t tell if I’m being led somewhere or you missed that completely, though I’m naturally leaning toward the former.
“Can you specify the end you’re seeking?”
In excruciatingly minute detail; suffice to say the most important tenets are egalitarianism, equality, and communitarianism.
May I suggest a review of the concepts of the map and the territory?
I think I missed it completely. I just don’t understand what rights does a “claim of ownership” give you. Let me ask the question again: what can you do with it? Let’s take two people, A and B. A has the “claim of ownership”, B does not. They both wake up, walk out onto the street. What can A do that B cannot? Which rights does A have that B does not?
What happens to people who do not like these tenets?
Would a kibbutz or a hippy commune be an example of a society you want?
“May I suggest a review of the concepts of the map and the territory?”
None is needed; I’m pretty sure that I understand the use of the terms map and territory here. Maps are representations of reality, territories the correspondent reality. I don’t argue against this term pairing, in fact I quite like it, and I’m pretty sure I haven’t violated them in principle. I was just heading in the direction of arguing that all anyone can ever have is a map, so to speak—I’m fundamentally an epistemological idealist. But this is a discussion we could go on about to the end of time.
“I think I missed it completely. I just don’t understand what rights does a “claim of ownership” give you. Let me ask the question again: what can you do with it? Let’s take two people, A and B. A has the “claim of ownership”, B does not. They both wake up, walk out onto the street. What can A do that B cannot? Which rights does A have that B does not?”
I think you might be under a misconception about the idea of market socialism (or my particular version of it, anyway): the only things which don’t have claims of ownership are non-people, in the broad sense. To make the scenario fit, you’d have to ask, “what can A do with A’s claim to ownership that B cannot do with A’s claim to ownership?” B cannot take A’s claim to ownership (be it his labor or the value associated with a single person’s share) and use it to work towards or in any way advance B’s vision of the Public Good if A does not agree with B’s vision of the Public Good. This is the only right/obligation that people in this theoretical can worry about: freedom to exercise agency and vision, and an obligation on the part of each person to respect the exercise of agency and vision of others.
“What happens to people who do not like these tenets?”
They’re free to participate or not participate in my, or any other entity’s, vision of the Public Good, including their own. If a particular vision is in low enough demand, then it likely won’t be achievable due to lack of resources gathered to accomplish it, and any organization around that Public Good will naturally dissolved as people become dissatisfied with it. This gives people an incentive to formulate a vision of the Public Good which is as universally-appealing and inclusive as possible.
In a sense, it’s much like the universalizability issue of the Kantian imperative. I can make any particular vision of the Public Good as specific as I like it, but as I add more and more detail to it, the more opportunities I create to turn people off from it. If my vision of the Public Good revolves around my every specific desire, it’s not likely to attract other people because I will have a different set of specific desires from other people. By contrast, if I can formulate a vision of the Public Good which is composed solely of specific desires that appeal to a lot of people, more people will join me in the pursuit of my vision of the Public Good.
This should all sound quite similar to what we have today, because it is. The difference is that, with the abolition of private property and a democratic ownership of the MoP, there’s a lot more room for many different visions of the Public Good to be realized as no one has anymore ability to impose their Public Good vision on people than anyone else does. I always thought this was a pretty meritocratic system.
A territory may be judged to win or lose according to how it is evaluated. Does the territory tell you that GDPis objectively a better metric than QUALYs?