I wonder how many other people feel this strongly about being criticized/insulted by a high status person (I guess at least Roko also felt strongly enough about being called “stupid” by Eliezer to contribute to him leaving this community a few days later), and whether Eliezer might not be aware of this effect he is having on others.
As a data point here I tend to empathize with the recipient of such barrages to what I subjectively estimate as about 60% of the degree of emotional affect that I would experience if it were directed at myself. Particularly if said recipient is someone I respect as much as Roko and when the insults are not justified—less if they do not have my respect and if the insults are justified I experience no empathy. It is the kind of thing that I viscerally object to having in my tribe and where it is possible I try to ensure that the consequences to the high status person for their behavior are as negative as possible—or at least minimize the reward they receive if the tribe is one that tends to award bullying.
There are times in the past—let’s say 4 years ago—where such an attack would certainly prompt me to leave a community, even if the community was otherwise moderately appreciated. Now I believe I am unlikely to leave over such an incident. I would say I am more socially resilient and also more capable as understanding social politics as a game and so take it less personally. For instance when received the more mildly expressed declaration from Eliezer “You are not safe to even associate with!” I don’t recall experiencing any flight impulses—more surprise.
I’m surprised and disconcerted that some people might be so afraid of being rebuked by Eliezer as to be reluctant to criticize/correct him even when such incontrovertible evidence is available showing that he’s wrong.
I was a little surprised at first too at reading of komponisto’s reticence. Until I thought about it and reminded myself that in general I err on the side of not holding my tongue when I ought. In fact, the character “wedrifid” on wotmud.org with which I initially established this handle was banned from the game for 3 months for making exactly this kind of correction based off incontrovertible truth. People with status are dangerous and in general highly epistemically irrational in this regard. Correcting them is nearly always foolish.
I must emphasize that part of my initial surprise at kompo’s reticence is due to my model of Eliezer as not being especially corrupt in this kind of regard. In response to such correction I expect him to respond positively and update. While Eliezer may be arrogant and a tad careless when interacting with people at times but he is not an egotistical jerk enforcing his dominance in his domain with dick moves. That’s both high praise (by my way of thinking) and a reason for people to err less on the side of caution with him and to take less personally any ‘abrupt’ things he may say. Eliezer being rude to you isn’t a precursor to him beating you to death with a metaphorical rock to maintain his power—as our instincts may anticipate. He’s just being rude.
As a data point here I tend to empathize with the recipient of such barrages to what I subjectively estimate as about 60% of the degree of emotional affect that I would experience if it were directed at myself. Particularly if said recipient is someone I respect as much as Roko and when the insults are not justified—less if they do not have my respect and if the insults are justified I experience no empathy. It is the kind of thing that I viscerally object to having in my tribe and where it is possible I try to ensure that the consequences to the high status person for their behavior are as negative as possible—or at least minimize the reward they receive if the tribe is one that tends to award bullying.
There are times in the past—let’s say 4 years ago—where such an attack would certainly prompt me to leave a community, even if the community was otherwise moderately appreciated. Now I believe I am unlikely to leave over such an incident. I would say I am more socially resilient and also more capable as understanding social politics as a game and so take it less personally. For instance when received the more mildly expressed declaration from Eliezer “You are not safe to even associate with!” I don’t recall experiencing any flight impulses—more surprise.
I was a little surprised at first too at reading of komponisto’s reticence. Until I thought about it and reminded myself that in general I err on the side of not holding my tongue when I ought. In fact, the character “wedrifid” on wotmud.org with which I initially established this handle was banned from the game for 3 months for making exactly this kind of correction based off incontrovertible truth. People with status are dangerous and in general highly epistemically irrational in this regard. Correcting them is nearly always foolish.
I must emphasize that part of my initial surprise at kompo’s reticence is due to my model of Eliezer as not being especially corrupt in this kind of regard. In response to such correction I expect him to respond positively and update. While Eliezer may be arrogant and a tad careless when interacting with people at times but he is not an egotistical jerk enforcing his dominance in his domain with dick moves. That’s both high praise (by my way of thinking) and a reason for people to err less on the side of caution with him and to take less personally any ‘abrupt’ things he may say. Eliezer being rude to you isn’t a precursor to him beating you to death with a metaphorical rock to maintain his power—as our instincts may anticipate. He’s just being rude.