The history of human civilization has been one of domination and exploitation of the weak by the strong. Kings and nobles built power structures to enrich themselves with tribute from hardworking peasants; men’s physical advantages ensured their dominance over women; powerful nations conquered weaker ones; and majorities oppressed any minority conspicuous enough to coordinate against. But, probably around the Enlightenment, something changed. Maybe it was the rise of abstract thought about right and wrong; maybe it was a change it what those thoughts were; or maybe it was something else entirely, but the result was that the powerful began to care about the suffering of the weak. Since this shift, intellectual and popular movements followed by government action have tried to ameliorate the oppression of subjugated races, of women, of the poor, of homosexuals, and any other group that suffers unjustly. This progress has been opposed both by inertia and status quo bias, and by the self-interest of the powerful (who are still usually members of the same groups that were powerful before the progress began).
What exactly changed and in the Enlightenment and how is a very good question, and I don’t think there’s anything like a consensus Progressive answer.
And I was going to write my vision of the NR narrative but I realized I’d mostly just be paraphrasing Scott Alexander’s Nutshell.
It’s interesting that in your idea of the core progressive narrative the word corporation and democracy doesn’t appear.
Since this shift, intellectual and popular movements followed by government action have tried to ameliorate the oppression of subjugated races, of women, of the poor, of homosexuals, and any other group that suffers unjustly.
Homesexuality got outlawed after the enlightment in the 19th century by progressives who wanted to improve the morality of society.
Homesexuality got outlawed after the enlightment in the 19th century by progressives who wanted to improve the morality of society.
Um, Justinian’s legal code prescribed the death penalty for sodomy, and people were being tried and sometimes executed for it during the Middle Ages and Renaissance.
It’s interesting that in your idea of the core progressive narrative the word corporation and democracy doesn’t appear.
It’s probably my own idiosyncrasy that these are less salient for me, but it’s not hard to see where they fit in. Corporations are, to most progressives, the primary modern incarnation of exploitative strength. Democracy was a powerful blow against the old political exploitation system; most progressives I encounter will tell you how many problems still remain but nevertheless prefer democracy to any alternative.
Homesexuality got outlawed after the enlightment in the 19th century by progressives who wanted to improve the morality of society.
I think it’s fair to say this fact doesn’t fit well with the core progressive narrative. I don’t know the history of that movement, but to explain it I think you’d have to either contest the premise that progressives were really the ones behind it, or temper the narrative by acknowledging at least some downsides to the progressive memeplex.
Corporations are, to most progressives, the primary modern incarnation of exploitative strength.
I don’t know if that’s a very coherent position: corporations are a way for “little people” to be small-time capitalists, to put their savings to productive use.
I think progressives dislike corporations because they don’t want anyone to be powerful—except for the government they are running.
I think progressives dislike corporations because they don’t want anyone to be powerful—except for the government they are running.
Somewhat true, but it’s not like this is a terminal value. Progressives believe that most entities will use power for selfish ends, and that government is less likely to do so (excessive faith in this proposition is indeed a failure mode of less thoughtful progressives).
corporations are a way for “little people” to be small-time capitalists, to put their savings to productive use.
There are a number of ways to square the fact that “little people” can own small parts of corporations with the belief that corporations are exploitative. You could argue that corporations are run by and for their executives and shareholders aren’t coordinated enough to do anything about it; you could also argue that the exploitative power of the corporation benefits its shareholders but in a negative-sum way, so that shareholders are better off than they would be if the company didn’t exploit but worse off than if no companies exploited.
Also, it’s worth noting that progressives tend to oppose ‘big business’ rather than corporations per se—they wouldn’t be any happier with a giant multinational proprietorship.
Maybe the general anti-reactionary narrative is more or less my narrative above;
the left-progressive addendum is
“But the memetic defenses that largely shut down open kleptocracy have a harder time grappling with plutocracy, by which one can use a sequence exchanges which all appear voluntary to exploit as unjustly as the kings of old”;
and the libertarian addendum is
“But the memetic defenses that largely shut down open kleptocracy have a harder time grappling with kleptocracy disguised as public good, by which a government can continually increase its plunder as long as it can invent more pretexts”.
Corporations are very much children of the enlightenment.
I think the idea that there hasn’t been any gain in wealth for the lowest of society in the last three decades is part of the progressive narrative.
Various progressives do complain about a loss of civil rights.
When it comes to minorities, languages of majorities are still dying. A lot of minority culture gets lost. Various progressives do complain about globalisation and don’t see it as a force that brings justice everywhere.
That’s like saying that modern progressives are against airplanes because they were invented by dead white man. Progressives don’t actually hold it against white men that they are white or men.
It’s easier to think about stuff (such as: How should the world work?) if you are in a position of power. It’s completely reasonable that the Enlightenment consisted mostly of white men, since those were the people with the access to education, the time to think and the ability to publish ideas. Progressives don’t ignore past power-structures. They might not agree with them, but that’s something else entirely.
(I don’t think that single comment is a great example to generalize from.)
That’s like saying that modern progressives are against airplanes because they were invented by dead white man.
There’s probably some progressive at some university (probably in some grievance studies department) writing about how we need a feminist and non-racist theory of aerodynamics.
It’s easier to think about stuff (such as: How should the world work?) if you are in a position of power. It’s completely reasonable that the Enlightenment consisted mostly of white men, since those were the people with the access to education, the time to think and the ability to publish ideas. Progressives don’t ignore past power-structures. They might not agree with them, but that’s something else entirely.
Yes, I agree that’s a reasonable argument, although there’s still the question of why nobody outside Europe developed it. It didn’t stop progressives from removing the western canon from university education on the grounds that it was all “dead white men”.
There’s probably some progressive at some university (probably in some grievance studies department) writing about how we need a feminist and non-racist theory of aerodynamics.
Well, aerodynamics is based on Newtonian mechanics, and Newton’s principa mathematica is a rape manual, and aeroplanes are kinda phallic.
There’s probably some progressive at some university (probably in some grievance studies department) writing about how we need a feminist and non-racist theory of aerodynamics.
Alternatively what’s wrong with rail? Isn’t rail a lot more green if you power it via solar cells? Airplanes are also a core feature of globalism.
Let’s see: it’s slower except for short distances, doesn’t work across continents, and most importantly is less flexible since your limited to pre-built tracks.
Here’s my idea of the core progressive narrative:
What exactly changed and in the Enlightenment and how is a very good question, and I don’t think there’s anything like a consensus Progressive answer.
And I was going to write my vision of the NR narrative but I realized I’d mostly just be paraphrasing Scott Alexander’s Nutshell.
It’s interesting that in your idea of the core progressive narrative the word corporation and democracy doesn’t appear.
Homesexuality got outlawed after the enlightment in the 19th century by progressives who wanted to improve the morality of society.
Um, Justinian’s legal code prescribed the death penalty for sodomy, and people were being tried and sometimes executed for it during the Middle Ages and Renaissance.
That doesn’t change that laws were passed in the 19th century by progressives to punish homosexuality that weren’t punished directly beforehand.
It’s probably my own idiosyncrasy that these are less salient for me, but it’s not hard to see where they fit in. Corporations are, to most progressives, the primary modern incarnation of exploitative strength. Democracy was a powerful blow against the old political exploitation system; most progressives I encounter will tell you how many problems still remain but nevertheless prefer democracy to any alternative.
I think it’s fair to say this fact doesn’t fit well with the core progressive narrative. I don’t know the history of that movement, but to explain it I think you’d have to either contest the premise that progressives were really the ones behind it, or temper the narrative by acknowledging at least some downsides to the progressive memeplex.
I don’t know if that’s a very coherent position: corporations are a way for “little people” to be small-time capitalists, to put their savings to productive use.
I think progressives dislike corporations because they don’t want anyone to be powerful—except for the government they are running.
Somewhat true, but it’s not like this is a terminal value. Progressives believe that most entities will use power for selfish ends, and that government is less likely to do so (excessive faith in this proposition is indeed a failure mode of less thoughtful progressives).
There are a number of ways to square the fact that “little people” can own small parts of corporations with the belief that corporations are exploitative. You could argue that corporations are run by and for their executives and shareholders aren’t coordinated enough to do anything about it; you could also argue that the exploitative power of the corporation benefits its shareholders but in a negative-sum way, so that shareholders are better off than they would be if the company didn’t exploit but worse off than if no companies exploited.
Also, it’s worth noting that progressives tend to oppose ‘big business’ rather than corporations per se—they wouldn’t be any happier with a giant multinational proprietorship.
It is for certain people. Who, not quite coincidentally, end up in power on occasion.
Which, of course, flies in the face of the entire human history… X-)
Yes, that’s true, though many use the words interchangeably.
Maybe the general anti-reactionary narrative is more or less my narrative above; the left-progressive addendum is
and the libertarian addendum is
I actually agree with both addenda.
Corporations are very much children of the enlightenment.
I think the idea that there hasn’t been any gain in wealth for the lowest of society in the last three decades is part of the progressive narrative. Various progressives do complain about a loss of civil rights.
When it comes to minorities, languages of majorities are still dying. A lot of minority culture gets lost. Various progressives do complain about globalisation and don’t see it as a force that brings justice everywhere.
Something like that, except modern progressives are uncomfortable with it because the Enlightenment consisted mostly of dead white men.
That’s like saying that modern progressives are against airplanes because they were invented by dead white man. Progressives don’t actually hold it against white men that they are white or men.
It’s easier to think about stuff (such as: How should the world work?) if you are in a position of power. It’s completely reasonable that the Enlightenment consisted mostly of white men, since those were the people with the access to education, the time to think and the ability to publish ideas. Progressives don’t ignore past power-structures. They might not agree with them, but that’s something else entirely.
(I don’t think that single comment is a great example to generalize from.)
There’s probably some progressive at some university (probably in some grievance studies department) writing about how we need a feminist and non-racist theory of aerodynamics.
Yes, I agree that’s a reasonable argument, although there’s still the question of why nobody outside Europe developed it. It didn’t stop progressives from removing the western canon from university education on the grounds that it was all “dead white men”.
Well, aerodynamics is based on Newtonian mechanics, and Newton’s principa mathematica is a rape manual, and aeroplanes are kinda phallic.
To be fair, the Western cannon doesn’t have a good reputation on LW either.
By “Western cannon” I mean the cultural currents that lead to things like science. What do you mean by it?
I think that he is alluding to your spelling of “canon” as “cannon”
Thanks, fixed.
Alternatively what’s wrong with rail? Isn’t rail a lot more green if you power it via solar cells? Airplanes are also a core feature of globalism.
Let’s see: it’s slower except for short distances, doesn’t work across continents, and most importantly is less flexible since your limited to pre-built tracks.
And that somehow implies the current theory of aerodynamics is false?
I think you might have read an ironic sentence as being more serious than it was.
Sarcasm doesn’t work on the internet.