It sounds like there’s actually like 3-5 different object level places where we’re talking about slightly different things. I also updated on the practical aspect from Ryan’s comment. So, idk here’s a bunch of distinct points.
1.
Ryan Greenblatt’s comment updated me that the energy requirements here are minimal enough that “eating the sun” isn’t really going to come up as a consideration for astronomical waste. (Eating the Earth or most of the solar system seems like it still might be. But, I agree we shouldn’t Eat the Earth)
2.
I’d interpreted most past comments for nearterm (i.e. measured in decades) crazy shit to be about building Dyson spheres, not Star Lifting. (i.e. I expected the ’20 years from now in some big ol’ computer’ in the solstice song to be about dyson spheres and voluntary uploads). I think many people will still freak out about Dyson Sphering the sun (not sure if you would). I would personally argue “it’s just pretty damn important to Dyson Sphere the sun even if it makes people uncomfortable (while designing it such that Earth still gets enough light).”
3.
I agree in 1000 years it won’t much matter whether you Starlift, for astronomical waste reasons. But I do expect in 1000 years, even assuming a maximally consent-oriented / conservative-with-regards-to-bio-human-values, and all around “good” outcome, most people will have shifted to running on computronium and experienced much more than 1000 years of subjective time and their intuitions about what’s good will just be real different. There may be small groups of people who continue living in bio-world but most of them will still probably be pretty alien by our lights.
I think I do personally hope they preserve the Earth as sanctuary and/or historical relic. But I think there’s a lot of compromises like “starlift a lot of material out of the sun, but move the Earth closer to the sun to compensate” (I haven’t looked into the physics here, the details are obviously cruxy).
When I imagine any kind of actual realistic future that isn’t maximally conservative (i.e. the bio humans are < .1% of the solar system’s population and just don’t have that much bargaining power), it seems even more likely that they’ll at least work on compromise solutions that preserve a reasonable Earth experience but eat a bunch of the sun, if there turn out to be serious tradeoffs there. (Again I don’t actually know enough physics here and I’m recently humbled by remembering the Eternity in Six Hours paper, maybe there’s literally no tradeoffs here, but, I’d still doubt it)
4.
It sounds like it’s not particularly cruxy anymore, but, I think the “0.00000004% of the Earth’s current population” analogy is just quite different. 80 trillion suns is involves more value than has ever been had before, 3 lives is (relatively) insignificant compared to many political compromises we’ve made, even going back thousands of years. Maybe whatever descendants get to reap that value are so alien that they just don’t count as valuable by today’s lights, and it’s reasonable to have some extreme time discounting here, but, if any values-you-care-about survived it would be huge.
I agree both morally and practically with “it’s way more important to make sure we have good global coordination systems that don’t predictably either descend into a horrible totalitarianism, or trigger a race for power that causes horrible wars or other bad things, than to get those 80 trillion suns.” But, like, the 80 trillion suns are still a big deal.
5.
I’ll note it’s also not a boolean whether we “bulldoze the earth” or “bulldoze the rest of the solar system” for rushing to build a dyson sphere. You can start the process with a bunch of mining in some remote mountain regions or whatever without eating the whole earth. (But I think it might be bad to do this because “don’t harvest Earth” is just a nice simple Schelling rule and once you start haggling over the details I do get a lot more worried)
6.
I recall reading it’s actually maybe cheaper to use asteroids than Mercury to make a dyson sphere because you don’t need to expensively lift things out of the gravity well. It is appealing to me if there are no tradeoffs involved with deconstructing any of the charismatic astronomical objects until we’ve had more time to think/orient/grow-as-a-people.
7.
Part of my outlook here is that I spend the last 14 years being personally uninterested in and scared by the sorts of rapid/crazy/exponential change you’re wary of. In the past few years, I’ve adjusted to be more personally into it. I don’t think I would have wanted to rush that grieving/orienting process for Past Me even though it cost me a lot of important time and resources (I’m referring here more to more like stuff in The God of Humanity, and the God of the Robot Utilitarians)
But I do wish I had somehow sped along the non-soulfully-traumatic parts of the process (i.e. some of the updates were more simple/straightforward and if someone had said the right words to me, I think I’d have gotten a strictly better outcome by my original lights).
I expect most humans, given opportunity to experiment on their own terms, will gradually have some kind of perspective shift here (maybe on a longer timescale than Me Among the Rationalists, but, like, <500 years). I don’t want people to feel rushed about it, but I think there will be some societal structures that will lend themselves to dallying more and accumulating serious tradeoffs, or less.
I feel reassured that you don’t want to Eat the Earth while there are still biological humans who want to live on it.
I still maintain that under governance systems I would like, I would expect the outcome to be very conservative with the solar system in the next thousand years. Like one default governance structure I quite like is to parcel out the Universe equally among the people alive during the Singularity, have a binding constitution on what they can do on their fiefdoms (no torture, etc), and allow them to trade and give away their stuff to their biological and digital descendants. There could also be a basic income coming to all biological people,[1] though not to digital as it’s too easy to mass-produce them.
One year of delay in cosmic expansion costs us around 1 in a billion of the reachable Universe under some assumptions on where the grabby aliens are (if they exist). One year also costs us around 1 in a billion of the Sun’s mass being burned, if like Habryka you care about using the solar system optimally for the sake of the biological humans who want to stay. So one year of delay can be bought by 160 people paying out 10% of their wealth. I really think that you won’t do things like moving the Earth closer to the Sun and things like that in the next 200 years, there will just always be enough people to pay out, it just takes 10,000 traditionalist families, literally the Amish could easily do it. And it won’t matter much, the cosmic acceleration will soon become a moot point as we build out other industrial bases, and I don’t expect the biological people to feel much of a personal need to dismantle the Sun anytime soon. Maybe in 10,000 years the objectors will run out of money, and the bio people either overpopulate or have expensive hobbies like building planets to themselves and decide to dismantle the Sun, though I expect them to be rich enough to just haul in matter from other stars if they want to.
By the way, I recommend Tim Underwood’s sci-fi, The Accord, as a very good exploration of these topics, I think it’s my favorite sci-fi novel.
As for the 80 trillions stars, I agree it’s a real loss, but for me this type of sadness feels “already priced in”. I already accepted that the world won’t and shouldn’t be all my personal absolute kingdom, so other people’s decision will cause a lot of waste from my perspective, and 0.00000004% is just a really negligible part of this loss. In this, I think my analogy to current government is quite apt, I feel similarly about current governments, that I already accepted that the world will be wasteful compared to the rule of a dictatorship perfectly aligned with me, but that’s how it needs to be.
Though you need to pay attention to overpopulation. If the average biological couple has 2.2 children, the Universe runs out of atoms to support humans in 50 thousand years. Exponential growth is crazy fast.
It sounds like there’s actually like 3-5 different object level places where we’re talking about slightly different things. I also updated on the practical aspect from Ryan’s comment. So, idk here’s a bunch of distinct points.
1.
Ryan Greenblatt’s comment updated me that the energy requirements here are minimal enough that “eating the sun” isn’t really going to come up as a consideration for astronomical waste. (Eating the Earth or most of the solar system seems like it still might be. But, I agree we shouldn’t Eat the Earth)
2.
I’d interpreted most past comments for nearterm (i.e. measured in decades) crazy shit to be about building Dyson spheres, not Star Lifting. (i.e. I expected the ’20 years from now in some big ol’ computer’ in the solstice song to be about dyson spheres and voluntary uploads). I think many people will still freak out about Dyson Sphering the sun (not sure if you would). I would personally argue “it’s just pretty damn important to Dyson Sphere the sun even if it makes people uncomfortable (while designing it such that Earth still gets enough light).”
3.
I agree in 1000 years it won’t much matter whether you Starlift, for astronomical waste reasons. But I do expect in 1000 years, even assuming a maximally consent-oriented / conservative-with-regards-to-bio-human-values, and all around “good” outcome, most people will have shifted to running on computronium and experienced much more than 1000 years of subjective time and their intuitions about what’s good will just be real different. There may be small groups of people who continue living in bio-world but most of them will still probably be pretty alien by our lights.
I think I do personally hope they preserve the Earth as sanctuary and/or historical relic. But I think there’s a lot of compromises like “starlift a lot of material out of the sun, but move the Earth closer to the sun to compensate” (I haven’t looked into the physics here, the details are obviously cruxy).
When I imagine any kind of actual realistic future that isn’t maximally conservative (i.e. the bio humans are < .1% of the solar system’s population and just don’t have that much bargaining power), it seems even more likely that they’ll at least work on compromise solutions that preserve a reasonable Earth experience but eat a bunch of the sun, if there turn out to be serious tradeoffs there. (Again I don’t actually know enough physics here and I’m recently humbled by remembering the Eternity in Six Hours paper, maybe there’s literally no tradeoffs here, but, I’d still doubt it)
4.
It sounds like it’s not particularly cruxy anymore, but, I think the “0.00000004% of the Earth’s current population” analogy is just quite different. 80 trillion suns is involves more value than has ever been had before, 3 lives is (relatively) insignificant compared to many political compromises we’ve made, even going back thousands of years. Maybe whatever descendants get to reap that value are so alien that they just don’t count as valuable by today’s lights, and it’s reasonable to have some extreme time discounting here, but, if any values-you-care-about survived it would be huge.
I agree both morally and practically with “it’s way more important to make sure we have good global coordination systems that don’t predictably either descend into a horrible totalitarianism, or trigger a race for power that causes horrible wars or other bad things, than to get those 80 trillion suns.” But, like, the 80 trillion suns are still a big deal.
5.
I’ll note it’s also not a boolean whether we “bulldoze the earth” or “bulldoze the rest of the solar system” for rushing to build a dyson sphere. You can start the process with a bunch of mining in some remote mountain regions or whatever without eating the whole earth. (But I think it might be bad to do this because “don’t harvest Earth” is just a nice simple Schelling rule and once you start haggling over the details I do get a lot more worried)
6.
I recall reading it’s actually maybe cheaper to use asteroids than Mercury to make a dyson sphere because you don’t need to expensively lift things out of the gravity well. It is appealing to me if there are no tradeoffs involved with deconstructing any of the charismatic astronomical objects until we’ve had more time to think/orient/grow-as-a-people.
7.
Part of my outlook here is that I spend the last 14 years being personally uninterested in and scared by the sorts of rapid/crazy/exponential change you’re wary of. In the past few years, I’ve adjusted to be more personally into it. I don’t think I would have wanted to rush that grieving/orienting process for Past Me even though it cost me a lot of important time and resources (I’m referring here more to more like stuff in The God of Humanity, and the God of the Robot Utilitarians)
But I do wish I had somehow sped along the non-soulfully-traumatic parts of the process (i.e. some of the updates were more simple/straightforward and if someone had said the right words to me, I think I’d have gotten a strictly better outcome by my original lights).
I expect most humans, given opportunity to experiment on their own terms, will gradually have some kind of perspective shift here (maybe on a longer timescale than Me Among the Rationalists, but, like, <500 years). I don’t want people to feel rushed about it, but I think there will be some societal structures that will lend themselves to dallying more and accumulating serious tradeoffs, or less.
I feel reassured that you don’t want to Eat the Earth while there are still biological humans who want to live on it.
I still maintain that under governance systems I would like, I would expect the outcome to be very conservative with the solar system in the next thousand years. Like one default governance structure I quite like is to parcel out the Universe equally among the people alive during the Singularity, have a binding constitution on what they can do on their fiefdoms (no torture, etc), and allow them to trade and give away their stuff to their biological and digital descendants. There could also be a basic income coming to all biological people,[1] though not to digital as it’s too easy to mass-produce them.
One year of delay in cosmic expansion costs us around 1 in a billion of the reachable Universe under some assumptions on where the grabby aliens are (if they exist). One year also costs us around 1 in a billion of the Sun’s mass being burned, if like Habryka you care about using the solar system optimally for the sake of the biological humans who want to stay. So one year of delay can be bought by 160 people paying out 10% of their wealth. I really think that you won’t do things like moving the Earth closer to the Sun and things like that in the next 200 years, there will just always be enough people to pay out, it just takes 10,000 traditionalist families, literally the Amish could easily do it. And it won’t matter much, the cosmic acceleration will soon become a moot point as we build out other industrial bases, and I don’t expect the biological people to feel much of a personal need to dismantle the Sun anytime soon. Maybe in 10,000 years the objectors will run out of money, and the bio people either overpopulate or have expensive hobbies like building planets to themselves and decide to dismantle the Sun, though I expect them to be rich enough to just haul in matter from other stars if they want to.
By the way, I recommend Tim Underwood’s sci-fi, The Accord, as a very good exploration of these topics, I think it’s my favorite sci-fi novel.
As for the 80 trillions stars, I agree it’s a real loss, but for me this type of sadness feels “already priced in”. I already accepted that the world won’t and shouldn’t be all my personal absolute kingdom, so other people’s decision will cause a lot of waste from my perspective, and 0.00000004% is just a really negligible part of this loss. In this, I think my analogy to current government is quite apt, I feel similarly about current governments, that I already accepted that the world will be wasteful compared to the rule of a dictatorship perfectly aligned with me, but that’s how it needs to be.
Though you need to pay attention to overpopulation. If the average biological couple has 2.2 children, the Universe runs out of atoms to support humans in 50 thousand years. Exponential growth is crazy fast.