I am no cognitive scientist, but I believe some of my “thinking” takes place outside of brain (elsewhere in my body) and I am almost certain some of it takes place on my paper and computer.
Speaking of “thinking” with neurons other than those found in the brain, kinesthetic learning gives me pause concerning the sufficiency of cranial preservation in cryonics. How much “index-like” information do we store in the rest of our neurons? Does this vary with one’s level of kinesthetic dependence? Would waking up disconnected from the rest of our nervous system (or connected to a “generic” substitute) be merely disorienting, or could it constitute a significant loss of personality/memory? Neuroscientists, help!
When I signed up for cryonics, I opted for whole body preservation, largely because of this concern. But I would imagine that even without the body, you could re-learn how to move and coordinate your actions, although it might take some time. And possibly a SAI could figure out what your body must have been like just from your brain, not sure.
Now recently I have contracted a disease which will kill most of my motor neurons. So the body will be of less value and I may change to just the head.
The way motor neurons work is there is an upper motor neuron (UMN) which descends from the motor cortex of the brain down into the spinal cord; and there it synapses onto a lower motor neuron (LMN) which projects from the spinal cord to the muscle. Just 2 steps. However actually the architecture is more complex, the LMNs receive inputs not only from UMNs but from sensory neurons coming from the body, indirectly through interneurons that are located within the spinal cord. This forms a sort of loop which is responsible for simple reflexes, but also for stable standing, positioning etc. Then there other kinds of neurons that descend from the brain into the spinal cord, including from the limbic system, the center of emotion. For some reason your spinal cord needs to know something about your emotional state in order to do its job, very odd.
Then there other kinds of neurons that descend from the brain into the spinal cord, including from the limbic system, the center of emotion. For some reason your spinal cord needs to know something about your emotional state in order to do its job, very odd.
But I would imagine that even without the body, you could re-learn how to move and coordinate your actions, although it might take some time.
I’m much less worried by this than I am by the prospect that I’d have to do the same for many of my normal thought patterns due to unforeseen inter-dependencies.
And possibly a SAI could figure out what your body must have been like just from your brain, not sure.
Indeed, that’s one of the reasons why I prefer thinking about it solely in terms of stored information: a redundant copy only really constitutes a pointer’s worth of information. It’s even conceivable that a SAI could reconstruct missing neural information in non-obvious ways, like a few stray frames of video. Not worth betting on, though.
This was the first objection that my neuroscientist friend brought up when I tried to talk to him about (edit:) cryonics. I don’t think science knows yet how dependent we are on our peripheral nervous system, but he seemed fairly sure that we are to a nontrivial degree.
As I say to every objection I hear to cryonics at the moment, your neuroscientist friend should write a blog post or some such about his objections—he has a very low bar to clear to write the best informed critique in the world.
(Guessing you mean cryonics—cryogenics is something else though not unrelated)
I am no cognitive scientist, but I believe some of my “thinking” takes place outside of brain (elsewhere in my body) and I am almost certain some of it takes place on my paper and computer.
Voted up and seconded. Yvain, If what you actually mean is “operate solely through physical means contained within the human body or physical means manipulated by interaction with the human body,” then I’ll up it to whatever number is supposed to be used for, “I’m only leaving room for uncertainty because there’s no such thing as certainty.” ;-)
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I am no cognitive scientist, but I believe some of my “thinking” takes place outside of brain (elsewhere in my body) and I am almost certain some of it takes place on my paper and computer.
Speaking of “thinking” with neurons other than those found in the brain, kinesthetic learning gives me pause concerning the sufficiency of cranial preservation in cryonics. How much “index-like” information do we store in the rest of our neurons? Does this vary with one’s level of kinesthetic dependence? Would waking up disconnected from the rest of our nervous system (or connected to a “generic” substitute) be merely disorienting, or could it constitute a significant loss of personality/memory? Neuroscientists, help!
When I signed up for cryonics, I opted for whole body preservation, largely because of this concern. But I would imagine that even without the body, you could re-learn how to move and coordinate your actions, although it might take some time. And possibly a SAI could figure out what your body must have been like just from your brain, not sure.
Now recently I have contracted a disease which will kill most of my motor neurons. So the body will be of less value and I may change to just the head.
The way motor neurons work is there is an upper motor neuron (UMN) which descends from the motor cortex of the brain down into the spinal cord; and there it synapses onto a lower motor neuron (LMN) which projects from the spinal cord to the muscle. Just 2 steps. However actually the architecture is more complex, the LMNs receive inputs not only from UMNs but from sensory neurons coming from the body, indirectly through interneurons that are located within the spinal cord. This forms a sort of loop which is responsible for simple reflexes, but also for stable standing, positioning etc. Then there other kinds of neurons that descend from the brain into the spinal cord, including from the limbic system, the center of emotion. For some reason your spinal cord needs to know something about your emotional state in order to do its job, very odd.
Fascinating. Citation?
I’m much less worried by this than I am by the prospect that I’d have to do the same for many of my normal thought patterns due to unforeseen inter-dependencies.
Indeed, that’s one of the reasons why I prefer thinking about it solely in terms of stored information: a redundant copy only really constitutes a pointer’s worth of information. It’s even conceivable that a SAI could reconstruct missing neural information in non-obvious ways, like a few stray frames of video. Not worth betting on, though.
Thanks for the informative reply.
This was the first objection that my neuroscientist friend brought up when I tried to talk to him about (edit:) cryonics. I don’t think science knows yet how dependent we are on our peripheral nervous system, but he seemed fairly sure that we are to a nontrivial degree.
As I say to every objection I hear to cryonics at the moment, your neuroscientist friend should write a blog post or some such about his objections—he has a very low bar to clear to write the best informed critique in the world.
(Guessing you mean cryonics—cryogenics is something else though not unrelated)
I’ll mention it to him.
(And, yes, oops.)
Voted up and seconded. Yvain, If what you actually mean is “operate solely through physical means contained within the human body or physical means manipulated by interaction with the human body,” then I’ll up it to whatever number is supposed to be used for, “I’m only leaving room for uncertainty because there’s no such thing as certainty.” ;-)