I think it would be a good idea to taboo the word “threat” here. I’m picking up strong vibes that not everyone is using the same meaning on this thread.
The problem is not that the line is blurry. It is that we don’t even know roughly where it is, or what factors it takes into account. I have the impression that some people are inserting the implicit requirement that it is only a threat if it angers the threatenee.
It is that we don’t even know roughly where it is, or what factors it takes into account.
Status, institution, sincerity and (most importantly) whether you would have punished completely independently of having uttered the threat. The last of those is the ‘real’ difference.
So, if I understand you, if you utter a ‘threat’ (scare quotes) to conditionally punish, but you would have conditionally punished even if you had not uttered, then it isn’t really a threat, it is simply a ‘warning’. Is that what you meant?
I don’t think I agree with that characterization of the threat/warning distinction. Many people would not punish if they had not given ‘fair warning’. But by your definition, such ‘fair warning’ is actually a threat.
I’m not sure what you meant by ‘status’, ‘institution’, and ‘sincerity’, so they may constitute a piece of the puzzle. My own intuition is that part of the distinction lies in whether the prospective punisher has the ‘right’ to punish. But I don’t have a good handle on whether the prospective punishee needs to deny the punisher’s right to make it a threat, or he also has to deny the sincerity of the punisher’s claim to the right.
So, if I understand you, if you utter a ‘threat’ (scare quotes) to conditionally punish, but you would have conditionally punished even if you had not uttered, then it isn’t really a threat, it is simply a ‘warning’. Is that what you meant?
Or, that it is the kind of threat that someone could give to me and call ‘pointing out consequences’ without me holding them in contempt as well as antipathy as a result.
I don’t think I agree with that characterization of the threat/warning distinction. Many people would not punish if they had not given ‘fair warning’. But by your definition, such ‘fair warning’ is actually a threat.
I wouldn’t use that definition and especially wouldn’t use that distinction both ways. ie. I wouldn’t actively assert that ‘threaten’ and ‘inform of consequences’ are mutually exclusive. I speak primarily of what would make talk of ‘inform of consequences’ appear an obnoxious attempt at condescension.
I’m not sure what you meant by ‘status’, ‘institution’, and ‘sincerity’, so they may constitute a piece of the puzzle. My own intuition is that part of the distinction lies in whether the prospective punisher has the ‘right’ to punish.
Yes, I mean approximately the same thing but with slightly more reduction.
But I don’t have a good handle on whether the prospective punishee needs to deny the punisher’s right to make it a threat, or he also has to deny the sincerity of the punisher’s claim to the right.
I suppose it has to be the mind of the threatener that matters. I’ve had people threaten me with things that I actually consider desirable. (Failure of other anti-optimization?) It would feel disingenuous of me to declare that what they are not doing is not threatening. Of course if I could make the disingenuousity witty I would take pleasure in uttering it—people who threaten me don’t have ethical rights to things like courtesy as far as I’m concerned!
In any case, it doesn’t help much to talk about “colloquial!threat” unless it is understood by everyone what is meant by “colloquial!threat”. I’m under the impression that some people here think that, for example, a sign saying “Shoplifters will be prosecuted” constitutes a threat, and some do not. Is it a threat to say, “If you hit me, I’ll hit back”?
What about, “If you don’t give me your lunch money, I’ll hit you”? If one is a threat, and the other is not, what exactly is the distinguishing difference? What about “If you sleep with that woman again, I’m filing for divorce”? Or, “If you don’t buy a ticket, you can’t see the movie in my theater?” Is it only a threat if the hypothetical death of the ‘threatener’ makes the ‘threatenee’ better off? Can someone threaten suicide? What is the distinction between a threat and a conditional promise?
I was trying to find a counterexample to the “both parties worse off” part of that definition, but now I believe it is correct.
Even in what at first appear to only harm one party, such as blackmail, if carried out, the blackmailer spent his bargaining chip.
However, what about cases such as “If you continue to approach me, I’ll shoot”?
What is the damage done to the shooting party? Assuming no legal retribution and no moral guilt, no loss of respect in the eyes of others, then is his loss the loss of amunition?
Well, if the shooter has absolutely no loss of utility done to him by the act of shooting, what’d be the point of warning the other guy in the first place? He’d just let him approach and then shoot him.
I see your point. Even if killing him would be a neutral result, and not killing him would be a positive, one still would make a sacrifice by shooting.
I think it would be a good idea to taboo the word “threat” here. I’m picking up strong vibes that not everyone is using the same meaning on this thread.
I much prefer the word “consequence”—as in, that action will have the following consequences . . . .
I don’t threaten, I point out what consequences their actions will cause.
This works so long as the ‘pointing out consequences’ are not, well, threats. There is a difference in more than word, even if the line is blurry.
The problem is not that the line is blurry. It is that we don’t even know roughly where it is, or what factors it takes into account. I have the impression that some people are inserting the implicit requirement that it is only a threat if it angers the threatenee.
Status, institution, sincerity and (most importantly) whether you would have punished completely independently of having uttered the threat. The last of those is the ‘real’ difference.
So, if I understand you, if you utter a ‘threat’ (scare quotes) to conditionally punish, but you would have conditionally punished even if you had not uttered, then it isn’t really a threat, it is simply a ‘warning’. Is that what you meant?
I don’t think I agree with that characterization of the threat/warning distinction. Many people would not punish if they had not given ‘fair warning’. But by your definition, such ‘fair warning’ is actually a threat.
I’m not sure what you meant by ‘status’, ‘institution’, and ‘sincerity’, so they may constitute a piece of the puzzle. My own intuition is that part of the distinction lies in whether the prospective punisher has the ‘right’ to punish. But I don’t have a good handle on whether the prospective punishee needs to deny the punisher’s right to make it a threat, or he also has to deny the sincerity of the punisher’s claim to the right.
Or, that it is the kind of threat that someone could give to me and call ‘pointing out consequences’ without me holding them in contempt as well as antipathy as a result.
I wouldn’t use that definition and especially wouldn’t use that distinction both ways. ie. I wouldn’t actively assert that ‘threaten’ and ‘inform of consequences’ are mutually exclusive. I speak primarily of what would make talk of ‘inform of consequences’ appear an obnoxious attempt at condescension.
Yes, I mean approximately the same thing but with slightly more reduction.
I suppose it has to be the mind of the threatener that matters. I’ve had people threaten me with things that I actually consider desirable. (Failure of other anti-optimization?) It would feel disingenuous of me to declare that what they are not doing is not threatening. Of course if I could make the disingenuousity witty I would take pleasure in uttering it—people who threaten me don’t have ethical rights to things like courtesy as far as I’m concerned!
Good observation. Perhaps adopting the fanfic convention and using “colloquial!threat” and “Schellinger!threat,” respectively, would do the trick.
Did you mean “Schelling!threat”?
In any case, it doesn’t help much to talk about “colloquial!threat” unless it is understood by everyone what is meant by “colloquial!threat”. I’m under the impression that some people here think that, for example, a sign saying “Shoplifters will be prosecuted” constitutes a threat, and some do not. Is it a threat to say, “If you hit me, I’ll hit back”? What about, “If you don’t give me your lunch money, I’ll hit you”? If one is a threat, and the other is not, what exactly is the distinguishing difference? What about “If you sleep with that woman again, I’m filing for divorce”? Or, “If you don’t buy a ticket, you can’t see the movie in my theater?” Is it only a threat if the hypothetical death of the ‘threatener’ makes the ‘threatenee’ better off? Can someone threaten suicide? What is the distinction between a threat and a conditional promise?
Yes. For some reason, I consistently add an “er.”
Edit: as I understand The Strategy of Conflict, a threat is a conditional promise which will make the both parties worse off, if carried out.
I was trying to find a counterexample to the “both parties worse off” part of that definition, but now I believe it is correct. Even in what at first appear to only harm one party, such as blackmail, if carried out, the blackmailer spent his bargaining chip.
However, what about cases such as “If you continue to approach me, I’ll shoot”? What is the damage done to the shooting party? Assuming no legal retribution and no moral guilt, no loss of respect in the eyes of others, then is his loss the loss of amunition?
Well, if the shooter has absolutely no loss of utility done to him by the act of shooting, what’d be the point of warning the other guy in the first place? He’d just let him approach and then shoot him.
I see your point. Even if killing him would be a neutral result, and not killing him would be a positive, one still would make a sacrifice by shooting.
Good point.