On the third matter, one problem is that you seem to display confusion about the structure of (U.S.) law:
Why not seek the murder charges in court so that abortions come to be considered murder? [...because of a court overruling the previous laws that make abortions not count as murder; was this the part that was unclear?] Why not seek to change the laws so that women who commit abortions will be convicted of murder, or at least for paying a doctor to commit murder?
Laws are not created in courts by means of attempted prosecutions being successful; they are created by a vote in a legislative body (and then sometimes struck down by courts as violating a meta-law). Currently, there is no law against abortion, so a prosecution could not be brought (not just that it wouldn’t be successful). Furthermore, there is also currently a meta-law against making abortion illegal—so it would be futile for pro-lifers to simply petition their legislatures to do so. What they would have to do is first attempt to get the meta-law reversed, and if you follow American politics at all, you will be aware that there has indeed been an active movement to do this for a number of decades now.
Having said all that, I consider your basic point to stand in light of this.
This response, while not uninformative about your thinking, suggests to me that you merely skimmed my comment rather than reading it carefully and integrating the detailed information it provided.
If I had to identify the source of this impression, it would be your apparent failure to recognize that the Supreme Court had been specifically referenced (albeit not by name) -- as was the fact (seemingly not as familiar to you as I would have expected) that pro-lifers have indeed been actively seeking a decision in their favor (this is the primary reason that judicial nominations are usually controversial in contemporary America).
I don’t mean to be critical (I much appreciated the post), but I just hate it when people underestimate the information content of my words.
Having grown up a midwestern evangelical Christian, I assure you I’m familiar with the decades-long attempt to overturn Roe v. Wade, and indeed once signed a petition in support of such an overturn. What I’m saying is that overturning Roe v. Wade with a new Supreme Court decision wouldn’t be the same as an even greater overreaching Supreme Court decision that set a precedent for considering abortion to be murder, with those committing abortion being subject to the usual punishments for murder.
Having grown up a midwestern evangelical Christian, I assure you I’m familiar with the decades-long attempt to overturn Roe v. Wade,
That’s what I would have thought! Thanks for the clarification. However, you did seem to be wondering why pro-lifers don’t try to pursue their goals in court; and seeking to overturn Roe is the only way they can do that.
an even greater overreaching Supreme Court decision that set a precedent for considering abortion to be murder
Well, the Supreme Court could use the “murder” rationale to reverse Roe, if it wanted to do so; and were the decision to be reconsidered in a new case, do you have any doubt that pro-life groups would file amicus briefs urging them to do just that?
the Supreme Court could use the “murder” rationale to reverse Roe, if it wanted to do so; and were the decision to be reconsidered in a new case, do you have any doubt that pro-life groups would file amicus briefs urging them to do just that?
Yes, I doubt they would do this, given the fact that I haven’t found anyone yet who actually wants women who abort fetuses to be punished on a par with, shall we say, ‘other kinds of murderers’; multiple decades of imprisonment, or life imprisonment, or death.
I have heard people talk of punishing abortion on par with other kinds of murder. This view point has the real potential to alienate people. It makes sense that people with that view point and realize this are not shouting it to the world or filing court cases. Instead they judge small changes are the best way to get what they want in the long term and fight those intermediary battles instead of taking it straight on.
On the third matter, one problem is that you seem to display confusion about the structure of (U.S.) law:
Laws are not created in courts by means of attempted prosecutions being successful; they are created by a vote in a legislative body (and then sometimes struck down by courts as violating a meta-law). Currently, there is no law against abortion, so a prosecution could not be brought (not just that it wouldn’t be successful). Furthermore, there is also currently a meta-law against making abortion illegal—so it would be futile for pro-lifers to simply petition their legislatures to do so. What they would have to do is first attempt to get the meta-law reversed, and if you follow American politics at all, you will be aware that there has indeed been an active movement to do this for a number of decades now.
Having said all that, I consider your basic point to stand in light of this.
I’m thinking of an (overreaching) Supreme Court decision.
This response, while not uninformative about your thinking, suggests to me that you merely skimmed my comment rather than reading it carefully and integrating the detailed information it provided.
If I had to identify the source of this impression, it would be your apparent failure to recognize that the Supreme Court had been specifically referenced (albeit not by name) -- as was the fact (seemingly not as familiar to you as I would have expected) that pro-lifers have indeed been actively seeking a decision in their favor (this is the primary reason that judicial nominations are usually controversial in contemporary America).
I don’t mean to be critical (I much appreciated the post), but I just hate it when people underestimate the information content of my words.
Having grown up a midwestern evangelical Christian, I assure you I’m familiar with the decades-long attempt to overturn Roe v. Wade, and indeed once signed a petition in support of such an overturn. What I’m saying is that overturning Roe v. Wade with a new Supreme Court decision wouldn’t be the same as an even greater overreaching Supreme Court decision that set a precedent for considering abortion to be murder, with those committing abortion being subject to the usual punishments for murder.
That’s what I would have thought! Thanks for the clarification. However, you did seem to be wondering why pro-lifers don’t try to pursue their goals in court; and seeking to overturn Roe is the only way they can do that.
Well, the Supreme Court could use the “murder” rationale to reverse Roe, if it wanted to do so; and were the decision to be reconsidered in a new case, do you have any doubt that pro-life groups would file amicus briefs urging them to do just that?
Yes, I doubt they would do this, given the fact that I haven’t found anyone yet who actually wants women who abort fetuses to be punished on a par with, shall we say, ‘other kinds of murderers’; multiple decades of imprisonment, or life imprisonment, or death.
I have heard people talk of punishing abortion on par with other kinds of murder. This view point has the real potential to alienate people. It makes sense that people with that view point and realize this are not shouting it to the world or filing court cases. Instead they judge small changes are the best way to get what they want in the long term and fight those intermediary battles instead of taking it straight on.
Interesting. You may be right, at least about the most mainstream groups (though the fringe would also participate, surely).
I won’t trouble you further on this, since I have an attack to fend off over in Discussion. :-)
Thanks for replying to me and others.