You’ve hit some key points here. I’m certain the post would be helpful to lots of Less Wrongers. I’m just as certain it would alienate many female readers, even if the post is not sexist apart from using terms that are usually identified with sexism.
I’d never heard of Roissy, but I do hate being lumped in with Mystery and company. And yet, I understand tha is the public face of PUA.
It’s also annoying that a discussion of basic science of human sexual attraction response could be such a mind-killer merely because it’s framed in terms of PUA. Are people really that bad at focusing on the material? If somebody was reading the exact same material in a book on human sexuality, I doubt it would offend them at all.
But ah, such is humankind!
Which is not to suggest I’ve transcended my humanity, it’s just that, being male and all, this subject doesn’t push my buttons that way.
If you don’t like what happens when you frame your material in terms of PUA, try a different framing. Write a post about the science of attraction, based on published research, and call it a post about the science of attraction. Or write about how social skills can help people be more successful, and portray it as a post about whatever specific social skills you’re discussing. You could even include examples from the romantic/dating domain in your post, or mention that the experiences of pickup artists are a source of some of your information (possibly with a link http://lesswrong.com/lw/298/more_art_less_stink_taking_the_pu_out_of_pua/), but the focus should be on the specific skills or techniques and the ways in which they’re beneficial. If you start the post with a one-paragraph summary, that summary shouldn’t need to devote more than a few words to romance or contain the word “pickup.”
This post proposal that you’ve written encourages people to focus on PUA. It is framed in terms of pickup artistry from the first sentence, it has “seduction” in the title, and it repeatedly mentions things like “how to trick women into bed” and “getting excellent and frequent sex” (even if only to disclaim them). As other commenters have described, the offputting aspects of PUA are front and center, even if you try to distinguish yourself from them. If your version of PUA is about “holistic self-improvement” and not the sleazy stuff, then don’t just tell us that, show it by making your post about that good stuff from the first sentence on.
Sure. I frame it in terms of PUA because that’s where I learned most of those skills from, with a tiny role for Toastmasters. But that’s an accident of personal history.
What do people think of this? The commenters here are correct that a post on social skills, or one on self-presentation, or one on human mating behavior, need not mention PUA or seduction at all. Would such posts be appropriate for Less Wrong?
There have been a number of highly regarded “instrumental rationality” posts about how to effectively achieve one’s goals. These are mostly clustered around productivity (akrasia, et al), but not exclusively. I can’t see why posts about how to effectively socialize would be off-topic.
That said, there is enough reflexive “Dark Arts” rejection around here that you might get more community support if you turn it around and frame it as how to best resist the techniques that other people might use to effectively socialize with you, and instead remain isolated and uninfluenced.
That said, there is enough reflexive “Dark Arts” rejection around here
Well the posts that deal directly with the darkarts don’t get anywhere near this negative a reaction. As such I believe the issue is not dark arts per se but rather that they are discussed in a way that by implication lowers the status of women.
The two questions to ask yourself are 1) whether your post can avoid the bad stuff involving PUA which is offputting to so many people, and 2) whether your post will have enough good stuff to be interesting/useful/relevant.
Most of the criticisms and “nay” votes here have been about question #1. If you can successfully avoid that minefield we can move on to question 2. I think there could be a lot of interest (and even if there isn’t, it’s not a big deal). Posts on social skills or self-presentation fit with LW themes of instrumental rationality & self-improvement (as seen in the akrasia posts). They could also fit the theme of self-awareness (as seen in the Luminosity sequence) - in this case, being aware of the impression that you make on other people and the impact that your behavior has on the interaction. There has also been (highly upvoted) expressed interest in social-skills-related content, both in the comments here and in the More Art, Less Stink post.
If you want, you could post a one paragraph summary of a possible post to get feedback on whether people are interested. You could also try asking yourself questions like “Would people outside of the target PUA demographic of young men find this post interesting & relevant?” and “Is this post relevant to many different domains of life, not just dating?”
it has “seduction” in the title, and it repeatedly mentions things like “how to trick women into bed” and “getting excellent and frequent sex”
I understand the objection to these sorts of language, but in the case of the first example, what exactly should be used instead? What is the value-neutral term for “seduction?” Unfortunately, I’m not sure we have one.
When you are attempting to seduce someone, what is it exactly that you want to get them to do? How can you tell when you’ve succeeded?
“Get them to have sex with me whether they want to or not” is an answer with different implications than “reduce the obstacles that impede them from acting on their desire to have sex with me” or “encourage them to act on their own desires in general” or “create a desire in them to have sex with me” or etc.
Admittedly, not all of those are value-neutral either. If the thing being talked about is negatively or positively valued, it makes sense that the word used is as well… to eliminate that by blurring the connection between word and referent does not improve communication.
It’s also annoying that a discussion of basic science of human sexual attraction response could be such a mind-killer merely because it’s framed in terms of PUA.
Perhaps you could refocus your proposal in this direction? If you’re interested in writing it, a review of the experimental work on the psychology underlying human mating behaviors, both male and female, would be more broadly useful and should be better received than giving dating advice to a subset of the community. It would be entirely in line with the Less Wrong theme of understanding human motivation as it actually is, no different to the discussion of biases and heuristics, or status and signaling. I couldn’t say the same about a how-to guide for manipulating women, and I’m glad you decided not to pursue it.
Are people really that bad at focusing on the material? If somebody was reading the exact same material in a book on human sexuality, I doubt it would offend them at all.
Many people are sufficiently bad at focusing on material that they would be offended even then.
You’ve hit some key points here. I’m certain the post would be helpful to lots of Less Wrongers. I’m just as certain it would alienate many female readers, even if the post is not sexist apart from using terms that are usually identified with sexism.
I’d never heard of Roissy, but I do hate being lumped in with Mystery and company. And yet, I understand tha is the public face of PUA.
It’s also annoying that a discussion of basic science of human sexual attraction response could be such a mind-killer merely because it’s framed in terms of PUA. Are people really that bad at focusing on the material? If somebody was reading the exact same material in a book on human sexuality, I doubt it would offend them at all.
But ah, such is humankind!
Which is not to suggest I’ve transcended my humanity, it’s just that, being male and all, this subject doesn’t push my buttons that way.
If you don’t like what happens when you frame your material in terms of PUA, try a different framing. Write a post about the science of attraction, based on published research, and call it a post about the science of attraction. Or write about how social skills can help people be more successful, and portray it as a post about whatever specific social skills you’re discussing. You could even include examples from the romantic/dating domain in your post, or mention that the experiences of pickup artists are a source of some of your information (possibly with a link http://lesswrong.com/lw/298/more_art_less_stink_taking_the_pu_out_of_pua/), but the focus should be on the specific skills or techniques and the ways in which they’re beneficial. If you start the post with a one-paragraph summary, that summary shouldn’t need to devote more than a few words to romance or contain the word “pickup.”
This post proposal that you’ve written encourages people to focus on PUA. It is framed in terms of pickup artistry from the first sentence, it has “seduction” in the title, and it repeatedly mentions things like “how to trick women into bed” and “getting excellent and frequent sex” (even if only to disclaim them). As other commenters have described, the offputting aspects of PUA are front and center, even if you try to distinguish yourself from them. If your version of PUA is about “holistic self-improvement” and not the sleazy stuff, then don’t just tell us that, show it by making your post about that good stuff from the first sentence on.
Sure. I frame it in terms of PUA because that’s where I learned most of those skills from, with a tiny role for Toastmasters. But that’s an accident of personal history.
What do people think of this? The commenters here are correct that a post on social skills, or one on self-presentation, or one on human mating behavior, need not mention PUA or seduction at all. Would such posts be appropriate for Less Wrong?
There have been a number of highly regarded “instrumental rationality” posts about how to effectively achieve one’s goals. These are mostly clustered around productivity (akrasia, et al), but not exclusively. I can’t see why posts about how to effectively socialize would be off-topic.
That said, there is enough reflexive “Dark Arts” rejection around here that you might get more community support if you turn it around and frame it as how to best resist the techniques that other people might use to effectively socialize with you, and instead remain isolated and uninfluenced.
I’d be saddened if that turned out to be true.
Well the posts that deal directly with the dark arts don’t get anywhere near this negative a reaction. As such I believe the issue is not dark arts per se but rather that they are discussed in a way that by implication lowers the status of women.
The two questions to ask yourself are 1) whether your post can avoid the bad stuff involving PUA which is offputting to so many people, and 2) whether your post will have enough good stuff to be interesting/useful/relevant.
Most of the criticisms and “nay” votes here have been about question #1. If you can successfully avoid that minefield we can move on to question 2. I think there could be a lot of interest (and even if there isn’t, it’s not a big deal). Posts on social skills or self-presentation fit with LW themes of instrumental rationality & self-improvement (as seen in the akrasia posts). They could also fit the theme of self-awareness (as seen in the Luminosity sequence) - in this case, being aware of the impression that you make on other people and the impact that your behavior has on the interaction. There has also been (highly upvoted) expressed interest in social-skills-related content, both in the comments here and in the More Art, Less Stink post.
If you want, you could post a one paragraph summary of a possible post to get feedback on whether people are interested. You could also try asking yourself questions like “Would people outside of the target PUA demographic of young men find this post interesting & relevant?” and “Is this post relevant to many different domains of life, not just dating?”
I wouldn’t have any problem with posts like that.
I understand the objection to these sorts of language, but in the case of the first example, what exactly should be used instead? What is the value-neutral term for “seduction?” Unfortunately, I’m not sure we have one.
When you are attempting to seduce someone, what is it exactly that you want to get them to do? How can you tell when you’ve succeeded?
“Get them to have sex with me whether they want to or not” is an answer with different implications than “reduce the obstacles that impede them from acting on their desire to have sex with me” or “encourage them to act on their own desires in general” or “create a desire in them to have sex with me” or etc.
Admittedly, not all of those are value-neutral either. If the thing being talked about is negatively or positively valued, it makes sense that the word used is as well… to eliminate that by blurring the connection between word and referent does not improve communication.
Perhaps you could refocus your proposal in this direction? If you’re interested in writing it, a review of the experimental work on the psychology underlying human mating behaviors, both male and female, would be more broadly useful and should be better received than giving dating advice to a subset of the community. It would be entirely in line with the Less Wrong theme of understanding human motivation as it actually is, no different to the discussion of biases and heuristics, or status and signaling. I couldn’t say the same about a how-to guide for manipulating women, and I’m glad you decided not to pursue it.
Many people are sufficiently bad at focusing on material that they would be offended even then.