I would like to address the perception that pickup excludes people other than single heterosexual males. Although single heterosexual males dominate the seduction community in its current form, certain ideas and ways of thinking are catching on for other gender combinations, even though they aren’t yet very well developed.
There are female PUAs. Here is an excellent FAQ from the Playettes forum of mASF. It’s way better than anything in The Rules or Cosmo.
There are also numerous blogs written by women who have been influenced by pickup, such as Dolly, the NY sex blogger who ended up meeting PUAs and eventually speaking at a pickup convention:
Male-male seduction? Some quick Google searching found gay forums using seduction community terms. And of course, gay male culture has pickup and cruising scenes that predate the modern seduction community.
As for female-female pickup, I don’t know much, but we recently had some fascinating comments on our blog from a lesbian woman who identifies as butch here, here, and here. She mentions reading pickup newsletters. Some quotes:
I am a feminist, but I am also a queer woman who has had less dating success with feminine women than my peers. When I try to talk about the privilege that women have in dating and why traditional dating advice isn’t helpful, my queer female friends and feminist friends immediately reject the discussion. I only recently came to the realization that most of the feminist dating advice directed at men is indeed meant to help women avoid awkward (not necessarily dangerous) situations. They are trying to design a dating dance where the women being approached have all of the benefits and privileges.
[...]
There’s also A LOT of feminist criticism of the sexist culture of lesbian butch-femme relationships and how butch lesbians don’t respect feminine women. Rolls eyes Whole. Other. Story… with amazing parallels to heterosexual dating. Spoiler alert: the butches who are most desirable and successful with women are equivalent to “jerks” and may even call themselves players.
[...]
It’s actually kind of funny to think about, but conventional dating advice leaves out so many of the important social norms and focuses on many aspects that actually have nothing to do with dating success. The authors (sometimes friends and family) either thought that the most important social norms were the most obvious, or the authors don’t mention that doing X in way Y leads to Z. People do X and don’t understand why Z didn’t happen. The previous two sentences often get the “Women aren’t codes you need to break in order to get sex!” comment. I’m so tired of those posts on feminist blogs.
[...]
I also realized the only way I could have the success I wanted would be to start challenging conventional and feminist ideas about dating. For example, I now accept that I have to approach women and lead the conversation. The expectation that men will make the approach and control the interaction is extremely sexist; women are passive in this dance. It’s anti-feminist and women frequently complain about creepy guys approaching them. But approaching and accepting that I’m going to have to do all of the work to make them attracted to me is the only way to increase my dating options.
Her perspective sounds freakily similar to what many heterosexual men describe, which suggests that these views are a common human response for any masculine person who dates feminine women.
I’ve heard stories about trans men with pickup background, though I’ve never knowingly run into one.
Although lukeprog aims his hypothetical post towards single heterosexual men age 20-34, due to his own knowledge and background, clearly some of the ideas and approaches in pickup can be adapted towards other gender combinations. In fact, discussion of male-female pickup has stimulated discussion of female-male, male-male, and female-female pickup.
I wonder if part of the reason we see so few queer or trans people into the seduction community (in addition to their lower population) is that such folks will get hated on by practically everyone. Not only do they get marginalization by the mainstream culture, while encountering homophobia in the seduction community, but they may get marginalized within progressive/feminist circles for studying pickup. Notice how the lesbian woman with pickup background I quote got negative reactions when trying to discuss the pragmatics of dating with her queer or feminist female friends.
If you are a lesbian female or bisexual male PUA… who is gonna be your friend?
My heterosexual male intuition also suggests that it’s good advice. (I’m neutral on the “let him initiate the first hookup” part, but everything else seems solid.)
I would like to address the perception that pickup excludes people other than single heterosexual males.
Allow me to emphasise that the skills are not only useful for single people either. And I don’t just mean in case you want someone on the side. Attraction and the social side of communication remain important within a relationship.
I would like to address the perception that pickup excludes people other than single heterosexual males. Although single heterosexual males dominate the seduction community in its current form, certain ideas and ways of thinking are catching on for other gender combinations, even though they aren’t yet very well developed.
There are female PUAs. Here is an excellent FAQ from the Playettes forum of mASF. It’s way better than anything in The Rules or Cosmo.
There are also numerous blogs written by women who have been influenced by pickup, such as Dolly, the NY sex blogger who ended up meeting PUAs and eventually speaking at a pickup convention:
http://cocksanddolls.blogspot.com/2006/01/playing-with-player.html http://cocksanddolls.blogspot.com/2006/02/sarging-friday-night-part-ii.html http://cocksanddolls.blogspot.com/2006/07/cliffs-notes-part-ii.html http://cocksanddolls.blogspot.com/2006/07/cliffs-notes-part-iii.html
Male-male seduction? Some quick Google searching found gay forums using seduction community terms. And of course, gay male culture has pickup and cruising scenes that predate the modern seduction community.
As for female-female pickup, I don’t know much, but we recently had some fascinating comments on our blog from a lesbian woman who identifies as butch here, here, and here. She mentions reading pickup newsletters. Some quotes:
[...]
[...]
[...]
Her perspective sounds freakily similar to what many heterosexual men describe, which suggests that these views are a common human response for any masculine person who dates feminine women.
I’ve heard stories about trans men with pickup background, though I’ve never knowingly run into one.
Although lukeprog aims his hypothetical post towards single heterosexual men age 20-34, due to his own knowledge and background, clearly some of the ideas and approaches in pickup can be adapted towards other gender combinations. In fact, discussion of male-female pickup has stimulated discussion of female-male, male-male, and female-female pickup.
I wonder if part of the reason we see so few queer or trans people into the seduction community (in addition to their lower population) is that such folks will get hated on by practically everyone. Not only do they get marginalization by the mainstream culture, while encountering homophobia in the seduction community, but they may get marginalized within progressive/feminist circles for studying pickup. Notice how the lesbian woman with pickup background I quote got negative reactions when trying to discuss the pragmatics of dating with her queer or feminist female friends.
If you are a lesbian female or bisexual male PUA… who is gonna be your friend?
I liked the Q & A for straight women. Fits my intuition and what has worked/is working for me.
My heterosexual male intuition also suggests that it’s good advice. (I’m neutral on the “let him initiate the first hookup” part, but everything else seems solid.)
Allow me to emphasise that the skills are not only useful for single people either. And I don’t just mean in case you want someone on the side. Attraction and the social side of communication remain important within a relationship.
The “excellent FAQ” link doesn’t work.
Fixed.