Indeed, this is true in the sense that it’s most likely that this is the case based on the available evidence.
I’m glad that you’re aligned with reality on this certain point, there’s not many that are, but I wonder, why do you claim that helping others is not helping yourself, excluding practicality of semantics? It seemed as you were very new to the concept of non-emotional attachment to identity/I because you argued my semantics.
But, you claimed earlier that none of this is actually factual would you like to elaborate on that? That these are my interpretations of vague and difficult-to-pin-down philosophical ideas.
The reason why I push this is because you contradict yourself and you very much seemed to have an opinion on this specific matter.
I feel it might help you to know that none of this is actually factual. These are your interpretations of really vague and difficult-to-pin-down philosophical ideas, ideas about which very smart and well-read people can and do disagree.
For example, the idea that you and your environment are not separate from each other may be true in some narrow technical sense but it is also very much false in probably more relevant senses. The same could be said for the idea that helping another is helping yourself. That’s not true if the other I’m helping is trying to murder me—and if I can refute the generality with one example that I came up with in half a second of thought, it’s not a very useful generality.
So… “none of this is actually factual”, it’s philosophical ideas, but later on you agree that “you and your environment are not separated. This is obviously true” by saying “Indeed, that was what I said. It is still true.” Which you did but it was ”...in some narrow technical sense...” and ”...but it is also very much false … relevant …” now it’s “It’s true” “factual”? Is it also a “philosophical idea” and a part of the ideas that “none of this is actually factual”?
Your statements in order:
not actually factual.
really vague philosophical ideas
may be true in some narrow technical sense
but it is also very much false in probably more relevant senses
indeed, that what was I said
it is still true
It’s fine to be wrong and correct yourself :)
The activity of that atom is not relevant to my decision making process.
That’s it. What part of this is supposed to be in error?
Yeah, it isn’t, but the example you gave of you and environment, is relevant to your decision-making process, as evident by your claim (outside of practicality) and of semantics that “helping others is not helping yourself” for example. So using an analogy which is not relevant to your decision-making process in contrary to your example where it is, is incorrect. That’s why I say use the example which you used before. Instead of making an analogy that I don’t disagree with.
It seemed as you were very new to the concept of non-emotional attachment to identity/I because you argued my semantics.
Not really, I’ve been practicing various forms of Buddhist meditation for several years and have pretty low attachment to my identity. This is substantially different from saying with any kind of certainty that helping other people is identical to helping myself. Other people want things contrary to what I want. I am not helping myself if I help them. Having low attachment to my identity is not the same thing as being okay with people hurting or killing me.
The rest of your post, which I’m not going to quote, is just mixing up lots of different things. I’m not sure if you’re not aware of it or if you are aware of it and you’re trying to obfuscate this discussion, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
I will untangle the mess. You said:
For example, neuroscience will tell you, that you and your environment are not separate from each other, it’s all a part of your neural activity. So helping another is helping you. If that doesn’t resonate enough, for example, evolutionary biology that we’re all descendants from stardust might. Or that there is a probability that you don’t exist (as per QM) although very small. So what happens? Your identity and self vanishes, as it’s no longer aligned with reality, you accept facts, emotionally.
Then I said,
I feel it might help you to know that none of this is actually factual. These are your interpretations of really vague and difficult-to-pin-down philosophical ideas, ideas about which very smart and well-read people can and do disagree. For example, the idea that you and your environment are not separate from each other may be true in some narrow technical sense but it is also very much false in probably more relevant senses. The same could be said for the idea that helping another is helping yourself. That’s not true if the other I’m helping is trying to murder me—and if I can refute the generality with one example that I came up with in half a second of thought, it’s not a very useful generality.
Since I have now grasped the source of your confusion with my word choice, I will reengage. You specifically say:
For example, neuroscience will tell you, that you and your environment are not separate from each other, it’s all a part of your neural activity. So helping another is helping you.
This is a pure non sequitur. The fact that human brains run on physics in no way implies that helping another is helping yourself. Again, if a person wants to kill me, I’m not helping myself if I hand him a gun. If you model human agents the way Dennis Hoffman’s character does in I Heart Huckabees you’re going to end up repeatedly confused and stymied by reality.
So what happens? Your identity and self vanishes, as it’s no longer aligned with reality, you accept facts, emotionally.
This is also just not factual. You’re making an outlandish and totally unsupported claim when you say that “emotionally accepting reality” causes the annihilation of the self. The only known things that can make the identity and self vanish are
high dose psychotropic compounds
extremely long and intense meditation of particular forms that do not look much like what you’re talking about
and even these are only true for certain circumscribed senses of the word “self”.
So let’s review:
I don’t object to the naturalistic philosophy that you seem to enjoy. That’s all cool and good. We’re all about naturalistic science around here. The problem is statements like
So helping another is helping you.
and
Your identity and self vanishes, as it’s no longer aligned with reality.
These are pseudo-religious woo, not supported by science anywhere. I have given you very simple examples of scenarios where they are flatly false, which immediately proves that they are not the powerful general truths you seem to think they are.
This is substantially different from saying with any kind of certainty that helping other people is identical to helping myself.
No, it’s not.
Other people want things contrary to what I want.
What does that have to do with helping yourself, thus other people?
Having low attachment to my identity is not the same thing as being okay with people hurting or killing me.
Yeah, but ‘me’ is used practically.
The fact that human brains run on physics in no way implies that helping another is helping yourself.
I said your neural activity includes you and your environment and that there is no differentiation. So there is no differentiation by helping another as in helping yourself.
Again, if a person wants to kill me, I’m not helping myself if I hand him a gun. If you model human agents the way Dennis Hoffman’s character does in I Heart Huckabees you’re going to end up repeatedly confused and stymied by reality.
That’s the practical ‘myself’ to talk about this body, its requirements and so on. You are helping yourself by not giving him a gun because you are not differentiated by your environment. You are presuming that you are helping yourself by giving gun because you think that there is another. No there is only yourself. You help yourself by not giving the gun because your practical ‘myself’ is included in ‘yourself’.
This is also just not factual. You’re making an outlandish and totally unsupported claim when you say that “emotionally accepting reality” causes the annihilation of the self. The only known things that can make the identity and self vanish are
high dose psychotropic compounds
extremely long and intense meditation of particular forms that do not look much like what you’re talking about
and even these are only true for certain circumscribed senses of the word “self”.
I don’t deny that it is not that factual as there is limited objective evidence.
These are pseudo-religious woo, not supported by science anywhere. I have given you very simple examples of scenarios where they are flatly false, which immediately proves that they are not the powerful general truths you seem to think they are.
I disagree with ‘helping another is helping you’ being psuedo-religious woo but it’s because we’re talking about semantics. We have to decide what ‘me’ or my ‘self’ or ‘I’ is. I use the neural activity as the definition of this. You seem to use some type philosophical reasoning where you are presuming I use the same definition.
So we should investigate if your self and identity can die from that and if other facts which we don’t embrace emotionally leads to a similar process but for their area. That’s the entire point of my original post.
It doesn’t look like there’s anywhere to go from here. It looks like you are acknowledging that where your positions are strong, they are not novel, and where they are novel, they are not strong. If you enjoy drawing the boundaries of your self in unusual places or emotionally associating your identity with certain ideas, go for it. Just don’t expect anybody else to find those ideas compelling without evidence.
These are the steps I did to have identity death: link to steps I also meditated on the 48 min hypnosis track youtube If you are interested in where I got my ideas from and if you want to try it yourself. It’s of course up to you but you have a strong identity and ego issues and I think it will help “you”(and me).
Yeah, it’s also called ‘Enlightenment’ in theological traditions. You can read the testimonies here. MrMind has, for example, read them, but he’s waiting a bit longer to contact these people on Reddit to see if it sticks around. I think the audio can work really well with a good pair of headphones and playing it as FLAC.
Indeed, this is true in the sense that it’s most likely that this is the case based on the available evidence.
I’m glad that you’re aligned with reality on this certain point, there’s not many that are, but I wonder, why do you claim that helping others is not helping yourself, excluding practicality of semantics? It seemed as you were very new to the concept of non-emotional attachment to identity/I because you argued my semantics.
But, you claimed earlier that none of this is actually factual would you like to elaborate on that? That these are my interpretations of vague and difficult-to-pin-down philosophical ideas.
The reason why I push this is because you contradict yourself and you very much seemed to have an opinion on this specific matter.
So… “none of this is actually factual”, it’s philosophical ideas, but later on you agree that “you and your environment are not separated. This is obviously true” by saying “Indeed, that was what I said. It is still true.” Which you did but it was ”...in some narrow technical sense...” and ”...but it is also very much false … relevant …” now it’s “It’s true” “factual”? Is it also a “philosophical idea” and a part of the ideas that “none of this is actually factual”?
Your statements in order:
not actually factual.
really vague philosophical ideas
may be true in some narrow technical sense
but it is also very much false in probably more relevant senses
indeed, that what was I said
it is still true
It’s fine to be wrong and correct yourself :)
Yeah, it isn’t, but the example you gave of you and environment, is relevant to your decision-making process, as evident by your claim (outside of practicality) and of semantics that “helping others is not helping yourself” for example. So using an analogy which is not relevant to your decision-making process in contrary to your example where it is, is incorrect. That’s why I say use the example which you used before. Instead of making an analogy that I don’t disagree with.
Not really, I’ve been practicing various forms of Buddhist meditation for several years and have pretty low attachment to my identity. This is substantially different from saying with any kind of certainty that helping other people is identical to helping myself. Other people want things contrary to what I want. I am not helping myself if I help them. Having low attachment to my identity is not the same thing as being okay with people hurting or killing me.
The rest of your post, which I’m not going to quote, is just mixing up lots of different things. I’m not sure if you’re not aware of it or if you are aware of it and you’re trying to obfuscate this discussion, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
I will untangle the mess. You said:
Then I said,
Since I have now grasped the source of your confusion with my word choice, I will reengage. You specifically say:
This is a pure non sequitur. The fact that human brains run on physics in no way implies that helping another is helping yourself. Again, if a person wants to kill me, I’m not helping myself if I hand him a gun. If you model human agents the way Dennis Hoffman’s character does in I Heart Huckabees you’re going to end up repeatedly confused and stymied by reality.
This is also just not factual. You’re making an outlandish and totally unsupported claim when you say that “emotionally accepting reality” causes the annihilation of the self. The only known things that can make the identity and self vanish are
high dose psychotropic compounds
extremely long and intense meditation of particular forms that do not look much like what you’re talking about
and even these are only true for certain circumscribed senses of the word “self”.
So let’s review:
I don’t object to the naturalistic philosophy that you seem to enjoy. That’s all cool and good. We’re all about naturalistic science around here. The problem is statements like
and
These are pseudo-religious woo, not supported by science anywhere. I have given you very simple examples of scenarios where they are flatly false, which immediately proves that they are not the powerful general truths you seem to think they are.
No, it’s not.
What does that have to do with helping yourself, thus other people?
Yeah, but ‘me’ is used practically.
I said your neural activity includes you and your environment and that there is no differentiation. So there is no differentiation by helping another as in helping yourself.
That’s the practical ‘myself’ to talk about this body, its requirements and so on. You are helping yourself by not giving him a gun because you are not differentiated by your environment. You are presuming that you are helping yourself by giving gun because you think that there is another. No there is only yourself. You help yourself by not giving the gun because your practical ‘myself’ is included in ‘yourself’.
I don’t deny that it is not that factual as there is limited objective evidence.
I disagree with ‘helping another is helping you’ being psuedo-religious woo but it’s because we’re talking about semantics. We have to decide what ‘me’ or my ‘self’ or ‘I’ is. I use the neural activity as the definition of this. You seem to use some type philosophical reasoning where you are presuming I use the same definition.
So we should investigate if your self and identity can die from that and if other facts which we don’t embrace emotionally leads to a similar process but for their area. That’s the entire point of my original post.
It doesn’t look like there’s anywhere to go from here. It looks like you are acknowledging that where your positions are strong, they are not novel, and where they are novel, they are not strong. If you enjoy drawing the boundaries of your self in unusual places or emotionally associating your identity with certain ideas, go for it. Just don’t expect anybody else to find those ideas compelling without evidence.
I agree.
These are the steps I did to have identity death: link to steps I also meditated on the 48 min hypnosis track youtube If you are interested in where I got my ideas from and if you want to try it yourself. It’s of course up to you but you have a strong identity and ego issues and I think it will help “you”(and me).
You’ve had people complete these steps and report that the “What will happen after you make the click” section actually happens?
Yeah, it’s also called ‘Enlightenment’ in theological traditions. You can read the testimonies here. MrMind has, for example, read them, but he’s waiting a bit longer to contact these people on Reddit to see if it sticks around. I think the audio can work really well with a good pair of headphones and playing it as FLAC.