Women have attractive alternatives to just being a mother
I’m not sure what the difference is between this statement and “achievements other than sex and children have become markers of status”.
It’s like saying that Confederate slaves didn’t have any available positions other than being slaves that were high status for themselves.
In a sense it’s true, since all positions other than being a slave probably resulted in the slave getting hunted down and shot. Can’t get much more low status than that. Alternately, you could say that those don’t count as available positions at all, in which case being a slave is the highest status position among the 1 available positions.
But phrasing it that way fails to capture what’s going on.
In older societies, women’s alternatives to being a mother were unattractive for external reasons: women who tried to take the alternatives would face retaliation of various types, either personal or societal. You can describe that as “low status” and it’s not wrong, but this is an unusual type of low status that existed because women’s desires were considered irrelevant by society. It’s a very noncentral example of “achievements other than sex and children have become markers of status”—such a noncentral example that describing it that way is actively misleading.
Being low status has always meant being vulnerable to social violence, and ascribing status is one of the ways that societies create and maintain social norms. The attractiveness of a position in society is dictated by the value and status society ascribes to it, and that valuation is always a set of “external reasons”. Particularly low status groups or members of society, who are perceived as different or in violation of important social norms are often ascribed the status of “criminal” or “enemy” and are left especially vulnerable to social violence.
women’s desires were considered irrelevant by society.
This is too strong a statement. Many women desire to have children. That desire was hardly considered irrelevant by society. Similarly, many women desire to get married or to worship God. These desires weren’t considered irrelevant by society. Quite the opposite. It was considered very important that women have these desires. Desires that led to high social status, like wanting to marry a young man in good standing in the community, were strongly encouraged. Desires that led to low or uncertain social positions like becoming a transient were discouraged, and if pursued in spite of discouragement, punished for undermining the social order. Society almost never respects the desire to become a social deviant.
A society that accords value based on nuclear family size has the social roles of mother, father, and provider and ascribes status to its members based on their success in those roles. In traditional societies, both men and women have jointly fulfilled the latter role. The proliferation of new social roles and highly-esteemed places in the community that have nothing to do with the nuclear family, (i.e. having achievements other than children become markers of status) is the reason that men and women both have a place in the community other than as parents and children.
A man living in a tribe of subsistence foragers can’t ever choose to become a full-time string theorist. He can sometimes choose to become a full-time shaman or priest. Both professions study mainly imaginary things, the difference is that one of these roles is ascribed status by the community while the other is not.
Being low status has always meant being vulnerable to social violence, and ascribing status is one of the ways that societies create and maintain social norms.
Again, that’s not technically wrong—but stating it that way loses information.
Women in general were low status. Many of their concerns and desires were ignored unless they happened to match concerns and desires that benefitted men. The fact that women didn’t have alternatives to being a mother was just a special case of that.. So increasing the status of women in general automatically increases the status of women doing other things than having children.
women’s desires were considered irrelevant by society.
This is too strong a statement
Almost any statement interpreted while ignoring connotation is too strong. “Women’s desires were considered irrelevant by society” means “an important set of women’s desires relevant to the current conversation were considered irrelevant by society”, not “all women’s desires were considered irrelevant by society”. Don’t ignore connotation.
Women in general were low status. Many of their concerns and desires were ignored unless they happened to match concerns and desires that benefitted men. The fact that women didn’t have alternatives to being a mother was just a special case of that..
How did men benefit? Did all men benefit? Were the men also constrained by cultural roles that served to benefit women?
women’s desires were considered irrelevant by society.
This is too strong a statement
Almost any statement interpreted while ignoring connotation is too strong. “Women’s desires were considered irrelevant by society” means “an important set of women’s desires relevant to the current conversation were considered irrelevant by society”, not “all women’s desires were considered irrelevant by society”. Don’t ignore connotation.
Context is probably a better word to use than connotation.
My argument is precisely that women’s desires were considered relevant. I think that society, which, is after all about half women, never has considered the desires of women to be irrelevant nor has it ever considered the desires of men to be irrelevant. Society has definite opinions about what sorts of desires are socially appropriate, but that’s very different from considering desires irrelevant. I think that your objection is about a perceived lack of social roles, especially formal social roles, for unmarried women in some subset of human cultures. Most traditional human societies also lack important social roles for unmarried men.
The transition to an emphasis on personal merit as a source of status rather than familial success has created high status social roles for both men and women outside of the context of family and reproduction. Because men were less tied to reproduction both biologically and culturally, that transition disproportionately affected men at its beginning and for a while Western cultures had many social roles for unmarried men and virtually none for unmarried women. But that was a fairly anomalous period in human history, and for the vast majority of history women have been just about as important to human economic production as men, and as the status of child production has continued to drop, fathers and mothers both have encouraged their daughters to pursue education and careers and other paths desires that lead to positions of high social status.
How did men benefit? Did all men benefit? Were the men also constrained by cultural roles that served to benefit women?
Men were permitted a wider range of roles, and a wider range of roles that personally benefitted them and fit with their desires, than women were.
You seem to be thinking “well, both men and women faced some restrictions, so there was no substantial difference between the restrictions placed on them”. This is not true; not every “some” is the same.
It’s like saying that Confederate slaves didn’t have any available positions other than being slaves that were high status for themselves.
In a sense it’s true, since all positions other than being a slave probably resulted in the slave getting hunted down and shot. Can’t get much more low status than that. Alternately, you could say that those don’t count as available positions at all, in which case being a slave is the highest status position among the 1 available positions.
But phrasing it that way fails to capture what’s going on.
In older societies, women’s alternatives to being a mother were unattractive for external reasons: women who tried to take the alternatives would face retaliation of various types, either personal or societal. You can describe that as “low status” and it’s not wrong, but this is an unusual type of low status that existed because women’s desires were considered irrelevant by society. It’s a very noncentral example of “achievements other than sex and children have become markers of status”—such a noncentral example that describing it that way is actively misleading.
Being low status has always meant being vulnerable to social violence, and ascribing status is one of the ways that societies create and maintain social norms. The attractiveness of a position in society is dictated by the value and status society ascribes to it, and that valuation is always a set of “external reasons”. Particularly low status groups or members of society, who are perceived as different or in violation of important social norms are often ascribed the status of “criminal” or “enemy” and are left especially vulnerable to social violence.
This is too strong a statement. Many women desire to have children. That desire was hardly considered irrelevant by society. Similarly, many women desire to get married or to worship God. These desires weren’t considered irrelevant by society. Quite the opposite. It was considered very important that women have these desires. Desires that led to high social status, like wanting to marry a young man in good standing in the community, were strongly encouraged. Desires that led to low or uncertain social positions like becoming a transient were discouraged, and if pursued in spite of discouragement, punished for undermining the social order. Society almost never respects the desire to become a social deviant.
A society that accords value based on nuclear family size has the social roles of mother, father, and provider and ascribes status to its members based on their success in those roles. In traditional societies, both men and women have jointly fulfilled the latter role. The proliferation of new social roles and highly-esteemed places in the community that have nothing to do with the nuclear family, (i.e. having achievements other than children become markers of status) is the reason that men and women both have a place in the community other than as parents and children.
A man living in a tribe of subsistence foragers can’t ever choose to become a full-time string theorist. He can sometimes choose to become a full-time shaman or priest. Both professions study mainly imaginary things, the difference is that one of these roles is ascribed status by the community while the other is not.
Again, that’s not technically wrong—but stating it that way loses information.
Women in general were low status. Many of their concerns and desires were ignored unless they happened to match concerns and desires that benefitted men. The fact that women didn’t have alternatives to being a mother was just a special case of that.. So increasing the status of women in general automatically increases the status of women doing other things than having children.
Almost any statement interpreted while ignoring connotation is too strong. “Women’s desires were considered irrelevant by society” means “an important set of women’s desires relevant to the current conversation were considered irrelevant by society”, not “all women’s desires were considered irrelevant by society”. Don’t ignore connotation.
How did men benefit? Did all men benefit? Were the men also constrained by cultural roles that served to benefit women?
Context is probably a better word to use than connotation.
My argument is precisely that women’s desires were considered relevant. I think that society, which, is after all about half women, never has considered the desires of women to be irrelevant nor has it ever considered the desires of men to be irrelevant. Society has definite opinions about what sorts of desires are socially appropriate, but that’s very different from considering desires irrelevant. I think that your objection is about a perceived lack of social roles, especially formal social roles, for unmarried women in some subset of human cultures. Most traditional human societies also lack important social roles for unmarried men.
The transition to an emphasis on personal merit as a source of status rather than familial success has created high status social roles for both men and women outside of the context of family and reproduction. Because men were less tied to reproduction both biologically and culturally, that transition disproportionately affected men at its beginning and for a while Western cultures had many social roles for unmarried men and virtually none for unmarried women. But that was a fairly anomalous period in human history, and for the vast majority of history women have been just about as important to human economic production as men, and as the status of child production has continued to drop, fathers and mothers both have encouraged their daughters to pursue education and careers and other paths desires that lead to positions of high social status.
Men were permitted a wider range of roles, and a wider range of roles that personally benefitted them and fit with their desires, than women were.
You seem to be thinking “well, both men and women faced some restrictions, so there was no substantial difference between the restrictions placed on them”. This is not true; not every “some” is the same.