That’s a price you need to pay if you want to get something out of mindkilled people, which incidentally tends to be the first step in making them less mindkilled.
Maybe it’s the price you need to pay, but I don’t see how being able to get something out of mindkilled people is the first step in making them less mindkilled. You got what you wanted and paid for it by reinforcing their beliefs—why would they become more likely to change them?
some kind of radical honesty policy
I am not going for radical honesty. What I’m suspicious of is using arguments which you yourself believe are bullshit and at the same time pretending to be a bona fide member of a tribe to which you don’t belong.
And, by the way, there seems to be a difference between Jesus and SJ here. When talking to a Christian I can be “radically honest” and say something along the lines “I myself am not a Christian but you are and don’t you recall how Jesus said that …”. But that doesn’t work with SJWs—if I start by saying “I myself don’t believe in while male oppression but you do and therefore you should conclude that...”, I will be immediately crucified for the first part and no one will pay any attention to the second.
I don’t see how being able to get something out of mindkilled people is the first step in making them less mindkilled. You got what you wanted and paid for it by reinforcing their beliefs—why would they become more likely to change them?
You’re not substantially reinforcing their beliefs. Beliefs entangled with your identity don’t follow Bayesian rules: directly showing anything less than overpoweringly strong evidence against them (and even that isn’t a sure thing) tends to reinforce them by provoking rationalization, while accepting them is noise. If you don’t like Christianity, you wouldn’t want to use the Christian argument for charity with a weak or undecided Christian; but they aren’t going to be mindkilled in this regard, so it wouldn’t make a good argument anyway.
On the other hand, sneaking new ideas into someone’s internal memetic ecosystem tends to put stress on any totalizing identities they’ve adopted. For example, you might have to invoke God’s commandment to love thy neighbor as thyself to get a fundamentalist Christian to buy EA in the first place; but now they have an interest in EA, which could (e.g.) lead them to EA forums sharing secular humanist assumptions. Before, they’d have dismissed this as (e.g.) some kind of pathetic atheist attempt at constructing a morality in the absence of God. But now they have a shared assumption, a point of commonality. That’ll lead to cognitive dissonance, but only in the long run—timescales you can’t work on unless you’re very good friends with this person.
That cognitive dissonance won’t always resolve against Christianity, but sometimes it will. And when it doesn’t, you’ll usually still have left them with a more nuanced and less stereotypical Christianity.
You’re not substantially reinforcing their beliefs.
Well, yes, if we’re talking about a single conversation, especially over the ’net, you are not going to affect much anything. Still, even if you do not reinforce then you confirm. And there are different ways to get mindkilled, entangling your identity with beliefs is only one of them...
On the other hand, sneaking new ideas into someone’s internal memetic ecosystem tends to put stress on any totalizing identities they’ve adopted.
True, but the same caveat applies—if we’re talking about one or two conversations you’re not going to produce much if any effect.
In any case, my line of thinking in this subthread wasn’t concerned so much with the effectiveness of deconversion, but rather was more about the willingness to employ arguments that you don’t believe but your discussion opponent might. I understand the need to talk to people in the language they understand, but there is a fine line to walk here.
Maybe it’s the price you need to pay, but I don’t see how being able to get something out of mindkilled people is the first step in making them less mindkilled. You got what you wanted and paid for it by reinforcing their beliefs—why would they become more likely to change them?
I am not going for radical honesty. What I’m suspicious of is using arguments which you yourself believe are bullshit and at the same time pretending to be a bona fide member of a tribe to which you don’t belong.
And, by the way, there seems to be a difference between Jesus and SJ here. When talking to a Christian I can be “radically honest” and say something along the lines “I myself am not a Christian but you are and don’t you recall how Jesus said that …”. But that doesn’t work with SJWs—if I start by saying “I myself don’t believe in while male oppression but you do and therefore you should conclude that...”, I will be immediately crucified for the first part and no one will pay any attention to the second.
You’re not substantially reinforcing their beliefs. Beliefs entangled with your identity don’t follow Bayesian rules: directly showing anything less than overpoweringly strong evidence against them (and even that isn’t a sure thing) tends to reinforce them by provoking rationalization, while accepting them is noise. If you don’t like Christianity, you wouldn’t want to use the Christian argument for charity with a weak or undecided Christian; but they aren’t going to be mindkilled in this regard, so it wouldn’t make a good argument anyway.
On the other hand, sneaking new ideas into someone’s internal memetic ecosystem tends to put stress on any totalizing identities they’ve adopted. For example, you might have to invoke God’s commandment to love thy neighbor as thyself to get a fundamentalist Christian to buy EA in the first place; but now they have an interest in EA, which could (e.g.) lead them to EA forums sharing secular humanist assumptions. Before, they’d have dismissed this as (e.g.) some kind of pathetic atheist attempt at constructing a morality in the absence of God. But now they have a shared assumption, a point of commonality. That’ll lead to cognitive dissonance, but only in the long run—timescales you can’t work on unless you’re very good friends with this person.
That cognitive dissonance won’t always resolve against Christianity, but sometimes it will. And when it doesn’t, you’ll usually still have left them with a more nuanced and less stereotypical Christianity.
Well, yes, if we’re talking about a single conversation, especially over the ’net, you are not going to affect much anything. Still, even if you do not reinforce then you confirm. And there are different ways to get mindkilled, entangling your identity with beliefs is only one of them...
True, but the same caveat applies—if we’re talking about one or two conversations you’re not going to produce much if any effect.
In any case, my line of thinking in this subthread wasn’t concerned so much with the effectiveness of deconversion, but rather was more about the willingness to employ arguments that you don’t believe but your discussion opponent might. I understand the need to talk to people in the language they understand, but there is a fine line to walk here.