I find it very… surprising that on LW someone can quote Philippe De Villiers, who is a representative of our extreme right, a fundamentalist Catholic and openly racist and homophobe.
In this context, his value system isn’t the issue. There’s nothing that Vladimir is using that’s a questionable claim. He linked to an article which quotes De Villiers and doesn’t say something like “oh, and mainstream scholars think this is bullcrap”- because the events unquestionably occurred. In fact the article quotes mainstream historians as agreeing with De Villiers on the factual history. The only reason De Villiers is bringing it up is for his own political goals. But that doesn’t impact the factual accuracy of the points.
In general, it is a hallmark of rationality to take facts where they come from even when they come from very distasteful sources. Thus, we’ve had in our rationality quotes threads quotes from people as diverse as Jack Chick, Ted Kaczynski, C. S. Lewis, and G.K. Chesterton.
Sure, in the case of De Villiers if he made a specific factual claim and was the primary source for that claim I’d be less inclined to trust it than if say Richard Dawkins made the same statement but that’s completely distinct from someone happening to be willing to cite an article that De Villiers appears in.
To be fully precise, the exact extent of the revolutionary atrocities in Vendée and elsewhere is a matter of some controversy. Unfortunately, as it happens with all atrocities that become an issue in ideological battles, there has been both exaggeration and denial motivated by sympathies for one or another side. However, as far as I know, there is no serious disagreement among historians that the extent of atrocities was unparalleled by anything else in Europe that happened in the centuries between the end of the Thirty Years’ War and the rise of the major 20th century totalitarians (i.e. Bolsheviks and Nazis).
(Again, if I’m missing some counterexample, I’d be really curious to hear it.)
To give another illustration, one way in which the French revolutionary regime clearly stands out is its really extreme bloodthirsty and exterminationist rhetoric, which is again unlike anything else seen in European history until the outbreak of extreme 20th century totalitarianism. (Some of this rhetoric is still reflected in the lyrics of the Marseillaise calling for the spilling of “impure blood.”) When such rhetoric becomes mainstream, similar deeds usually also follow. (The advocates of “hate speech” restrictions actually have a point when they argue this, however much they tend to be confused or disingenuous otherwise.)
On the other hand, the fact about the European wars in the period 1648-1789 being limited, professional, disciplined, and reasonably considerate towards civilians is completely uncontroversial in mainstream history. The standard name for the type of war in this period is “cabinet wars” (German Kabinettskriege). The Wikipedia page gives a concise summary.
The advocates of “hate speech” restrictions actually have a point when they argue this
” are murderous thugs” is hate speech that is apt to result in race war even if it is true of a disproportionate minority of that group, indeed particularly if it is true of a small but disproportionate minority of that group.
″ no-hablo-english with no job purchased million dollar houses no money down” is also categorized as hate speech, but is more likely to result in responsible lending policies than race war.
Thus, we’ve had quotes from people as diverse as Jack Chick, Ted Kaczynski, C. S. Lewis, and G.K. Chesterton.
We’ve had stupid quotes in the quotes thread from all sorts of smart, dumb, misguided, insane, and perceptive people. Do you mean to say that LW has collectively upvoted quotes from those people?
In this context, his value system isn’t the issue. There’s nothing that Vladimir is using that’s a questionable claim. He linked to an article which quotes De Villiers and doesn’t say something like “oh, and mainstream scholars think this is bullcrap”- because the events unquestionably occurred. In fact the article quotes mainstream historians as agreeing with De Villiers on the factual history. The only reason De Villiers is bringing it up is for his own political goals. But that doesn’t impact the factual accuracy of the points.
In general, it is a hallmark of rationality to take facts where they come from even when they come from very distasteful sources. Thus, we’ve had in our rationality quotes threads quotes from people as diverse as Jack Chick, Ted Kaczynski, C. S. Lewis, and G.K. Chesterton.
Sure, in the case of De Villiers if he made a specific factual claim and was the primary source for that claim I’d be less inclined to trust it than if say Richard Dawkins made the same statement but that’s completely distinct from someone happening to be willing to cite an article that De Villiers appears in.
Politics is the mind-killer.
To be fully precise, the exact extent of the revolutionary atrocities in Vendée and elsewhere is a matter of some controversy. Unfortunately, as it happens with all atrocities that become an issue in ideological battles, there has been both exaggeration and denial motivated by sympathies for one or another side. However, as far as I know, there is no serious disagreement among historians that the extent of atrocities was unparalleled by anything else in Europe that happened in the centuries between the end of the Thirty Years’ War and the rise of the major 20th century totalitarians (i.e. Bolsheviks and Nazis).
(Again, if I’m missing some counterexample, I’d be really curious to hear it.)
To give another illustration, one way in which the French revolutionary regime clearly stands out is its really extreme bloodthirsty and exterminationist rhetoric, which is again unlike anything else seen in European history until the outbreak of extreme 20th century totalitarianism. (Some of this rhetoric is still reflected in the lyrics of the Marseillaise calling for the spilling of “impure blood.”) When such rhetoric becomes mainstream, similar deeds usually also follow. (The advocates of “hate speech” restrictions actually have a point when they argue this, however much they tend to be confused or disingenuous otherwise.)
On the other hand, the fact about the European wars in the period 1648-1789 being limited, professional, disciplined, and reasonably considerate towards civilians is completely uncontroversial in mainstream history. The standard name for the type of war in this period is “cabinet wars” (German Kabinettskriege). The Wikipedia page gives a concise summary.
Never mind, I agree.
” are murderous thugs” is hate speech that is apt to result in race war even if it is true of a disproportionate minority of that group, indeed particularly if it is true of a small but disproportionate minority of that group.
″ no-hablo-english with no job purchased million dollar houses no money down” is also categorized as hate speech, but is more likely to result in responsible lending policies than race war.
We’ve had stupid quotes in the quotes thread from all sorts of smart, dumb, misguided, insane, and perceptive people. Do you mean to say that LW has collectively upvoted quotes from those people?
That’s a good point. But yes, we have collectively upvoted such quotes:
Jack Chick quote upvoted to +19.
G. K. Chesterton quote upvoted +14. (There is possible bias since the person who gave the quote was Eliezer.)
C.S Lewis quote upvoted to +18.
Ted Kaczynski quote upvoted to +8.
For that matter we’ve also had a quote from the Time Cube Guy voted up to +10.