I’ve been reading that (I’m on page 87), and I haven’t gotten to a part where he explains how that makes moral progress meaningless. Why not just define moral progress sort of as extrapolated volition (without the “coherent” part)? You don’t even have to reference convergent moral evolution.
I don’t think he talks about moral progress. But the point is that no matter how abstractly you define the yardstick by which you observe it, if someone else prefers a different yardstick there’s no outside way to settle it.
I don’t think it mentions moral progress. It just seems obvious that if there is no absolute morality, then the only measures against which there has been progress are those that we choose.
Of course it isn’t “objective” or absolute. I already disclaimed moral realism (by granting arguendo the validity of the linked thesis). Why does it follow that you “can’t see how to build a useful model of ‘moral progress’”? Must any model of moral progress be universal?
It is a truism that as the norms of the majority change the majority of people will see subjective moral progress. That kind of experience is assumed once you know that moralities change. So when you use the term moral progress it is reasonable to assume you think there is some measure for that progress other than your own morality. The way you’re using the word progress is throwing a couple of us off.
I’m not talking specifically about that. Mainly what I’m wondering is what exactly motivated you to say “can’t see how …” in the first place. What makes a measure of progress that you choose (or is chosen based on some coherent subset of human moral values, etc.) somehow … less valid? not worthy of being used? something else?
It’s possible we’re violently agreeing here. By my own moral standards, and by yours, there has definitely been moral progress. Since there are no “higher” moral standards against which ours can be compared, there’s no way for my feelings about it to be found objectively wanting.
I’ve been reading that (I’m on page 87), and I haven’t gotten to a part where he explains how that makes moral progress meaningless. Why not just define moral progress sort of as extrapolated volition (without the “coherent” part)? You don’t even have to reference convergent moral evolution.
I don’t think he talks about moral progress. But the point is that no matter how abstractly you define the yardstick by which you observe it, if someone else prefers a different yardstick there’s no outside way to settle it.
I don’t think it mentions moral progress. It just seems obvious that if there is no absolute morality, then the only measures against which there has been progress are those that we choose.
Of course it isn’t “objective” or absolute. I already disclaimed moral realism (by granting arguendo the validity of the linked thesis). Why does it follow that you “can’t see how to build a useful model of ‘moral progress’”? Must any model of moral progress be universal?
It is a truism that as the norms of the majority change the majority of people will see subjective moral progress. That kind of experience is assumed once you know that moralities change. So when you use the term moral progress it is reasonable to assume you think there is some measure for that progress other than your own morality. The way you’re using the word progress is throwing a couple of us off.
If you’re talking about progress relative to my values, then absolutely there has been huge progress.
I’m not talking specifically about that. Mainly what I’m wondering is what exactly motivated you to say “can’t see how …” in the first place. What makes a measure of progress that you choose (or is chosen based on some coherent subset of human moral values, etc.) somehow … less valid? not worthy of being used? something else?
It’s possible we’re violently agreeing here. By my own moral standards, and by yours, there has definitely been moral progress. Since there are no “higher” moral standards against which ours can be compared, there’s no way for my feelings about it to be found objectively wanting.