In 16th century there was neither science nor mass production in Europe—and enemies against which Europeans won so readily were still in Neolithic. It wouldn’t surprise me if in some parallel universe Roman Empire conquered Americas after their accidental discovery.
Against more modern Islamic powers, Late Medieval/Early Modern European track record was more or less even—Europeans managed to win the oceans, but Ottomans defeated Europeans over and over again until 1683, resulting in net loss of Christian land in Europe. The only major European conquest of lands in which more or less equivalent civilization level existed—India—was a textbook example of divide and conquer, and required neither science nor even much in terms of technological advantage.
(and in general, if you want to use some historical process or event as example based on conventional wisdom about it, conventional wisdom usually overstates things)
“Against more modern Islamic powers, Late Medieval/Early Modern European track record was more or less even”
Agreed- that’s precisely what I said. Except for the Americas (where they had a huge disease advantage), the Europeans did not have overwhelming military power until science and Traditional Rationality were well-developed.
That’s silly. It’s like saying, “In 1945, the US had a huge army, but the Nazis and Japanese were already mostly defeated anyway, so the huge army didn’t really have much to do with it”.
In 16th century there was neither science nor mass production in Europe—and enemies against which Europeans won so readily were still in Neolithic. It wouldn’t surprise me if in some parallel universe Roman Empire conquered Americas after their accidental discovery.
Against more modern Islamic powers, Late Medieval/Early Modern European track record was more or less even—Europeans managed to win the oceans, but Ottomans defeated Europeans over and over again until 1683, resulting in net loss of Christian land in Europe. The only major European conquest of lands in which more or less equivalent civilization level existed—India—was a textbook example of divide and conquer, and required neither science nor even much in terms of technological advantage.
(and in general, if you want to use some historical process or event as example based on conventional wisdom about it, conventional wisdom usually overstates things)
“Against more modern Islamic powers, Late Medieval/Early Modern European track record was more or less even”
Agreed- that’s precisely what I said. Except for the Americas (where they had a huge disease advantage), the Europeans did not have overwhelming military power until science and Traditional Rationality were well-developed.
By that time Europeans had some level of control over most of the world, achieved thanks to diseases, politics, and fighting very low tech opponents.
What large victories were left to be done?
That’s silly. It’s like saying, “In 1945, the US had a huge army, but the Nazis and Japanese were already mostly defeated anyway, so the huge army didn’t really have much to do with it”.