Not helpful. Ask yourself what exactly you were optimizing for when you wrote this post. Did you really think Owen would respond like, “Ah yes, I see where you’re coming from. I’m now going to shift my behavior toward this vague idea of calming down. I’m indebted to you for this post.”
No, you gave no details, and worded it in a way I can only imagine would be really annoying to be on the receiving end of. My guess is that it’s optimized for seeming to the gallery like you really ‘told’ this guy, or something like that, rather than being helpful in any way.
Not helpful. Ask yourself what exactly you were optimizing for when you wrote this post.
You are mistaken. This is a useful message to give, not petty one-upmanship. When enthusiasm crosses into erratic behaviour it can be unhelpful and having this pointed out is useful for anyone with a modicum of capacity for introspection. I can’t guarantee it will help in this case—from what I understand most instances of advice don’t work. Nevertheless it is useful, albeit terse, advice.
Maybe I’m making the mind projection fallacy, but I for one would not react well to being told to calm down like this. It would take every ounce of my painstakingly practiced rationality to not lose my ability to think when attacked with something that pattern-matches so heavily to petty oneupmanship.
Although the most charitably extracted content of the statement “calm down” may be true (“you seem to be acting very excited about this, but it would most likely be more useful to take a more calm approach”), it’s stated in a way that sounds like oneupmanship, and no explanation is given. What would work for me personally would be a well-thought-out reply explaining why my approach to the subject in question may be counterproductive, and serious explanations given for why certain emotions, such as “over excitement” may be contraindicated.
My guess is that this isn’t the mind projection fallacy though, as I’ve never had any success, nor virtually ever seen any, of people telling people to “calm down”, especially when no details are given. You seem to be operating under some theory like, “If it’s true, it’s useful.” Not so, clearly. Things need to be worded in a way that gets through. Anything else is arrogance, or some approach to human psychology that assumes we’re like robots, not reacting emotionally, and not susceptible to losing our rationality when things are stated the wrong way.
Telling someone to calm down, with no details given, when they think they really have something great, is nothing but reckless, if seen from the point of view of ‘trying to help’. I for one am not one for recklessness. Rational communication is a joint venture, where both parties must be careful in their wording, to navigate the messed up hardware we’re running on.
There’s “calm down” and there’s “are you sure you’re not having a manic episode right now?”. It could be actual actionable concern instead of just status jockeying noise.
You seem to be operating under some theory like, “If it’s true, it’s useful.”
Not so.
I for one am not one for recklessness.
Nor am I. Hence the necessity of keeping a grip on oneself when enthusiasm begins to overwhelm consideration. Owen is behaving recklessly and saying things (like the edit in particular) that will give him negative consequences (because it is obnoxious and ill suited to the context). Sure, we could skip the polite advice stage and go straight to the ‘consequences’ part but that isn’t doing a kindness. If Owen happened to have the particular Berserk Button that you have described and so was unable to respond appropriately then it would be so much the worse for him. It would still be necessary to limit the amount of insanity on the site for the sake of everyone else.
Right, well the rest of my response still applies.
EDIT:
Sure, Owen has been behaving recklessly as well, but that doesn’t mean we should respond with recklessness of our own. Instead, as is always necessary, a charitable attitude and a careful disposition is necessary for changing most people’s minds about anything. (Notice though that in the thread with linkhyrule5, I admitted that I may be ascribing a harsher meaning to “calm down” than other people are.)
It’s pretty uncharitable of you to call what I was describing a “Berserk Button”. Makes it sound ridiculous or something, when what I was describing is something that’s built into everyone’s hardware, pretty much. I’ve spent my life toning down those sorts of emotional reactions, yet they’re still there, to some extent. Everyone has them, whether they admit it or not. You do too, and you’d be well-advised to start thinking of yourself in that light. It’s a fantasy if anyone thinks they’re rational enough to take the content of criticism without being affected by the presentation.
So much the worse for him? This is nothing but arrogance, thinking “if my approach doesn’t work, it’s they’re fault, not mine”. Again, rational communication is a joint venture. If you think just throwing out whatever you want, as recklessly as you want, will help anyone, you’re mistaken. Actually changing anyone’s mind requires a level of charitability that, ironically, I’m most likely not exemplifying in this post.
I agree with the last point, however. Sometimes writing for the gallery really is what’s advised. I guess I just reacted to what seemed like a lazy, uncharitable, reckless reply, with no obvious utility except as oneupmanship. But you bring up a good point, which is that you don’t want to let counterproductive behavior stand, where certain people in the gallery may incorporate them, when they otherwise wouldn’t have if you posted something. This makes ‘was it a good attempt to help the person you’re replying to’ no longer the only consideration, as I was assuming implicitly.
Well that’s interesting. I don’t know, could be me overgeneralizing from my own experience. At least where I grew up, “calm down” was never used charitably. It was always designed to be annoying oneupmanship. It was as if getting too excited wasn’t cool, because it meant you weren’t “mature enough” to be jaded, and that sort of thing.
(I’ve found it extremely difficult to shed associations from my time growing up, and despite years on the Internet, communicating with people all over the world, my dominant associations are often still just based on the culture I was exposed to during those formative years.)
Not helpful. Ask yourself what exactly you were optimizing for when you wrote this post. Did you really think Owen would respond like, “Ah yes, I see where you’re coming from. I’m now going to shift my behavior toward this vague idea of calming down. I’m indebted to you for this post.”
No, you gave no details, and worded it in a way I can only imagine would be really annoying to be on the receiving end of. My guess is that it’s optimized for seeming to the gallery like you really ‘told’ this guy, or something like that, rather than being helpful in any way.
You are mistaken. This is a useful message to give, not petty one-upmanship. When enthusiasm crosses into erratic behaviour it can be unhelpful and having this pointed out is useful for anyone with a modicum of capacity for introspection. I can’t guarantee it will help in this case—from what I understand most instances of advice don’t work. Nevertheless it is useful, albeit terse, advice.
Maybe I’m making the mind projection fallacy, but I for one would not react well to being told to calm down like this. It would take every ounce of my painstakingly practiced rationality to not lose my ability to think when attacked with something that pattern-matches so heavily to petty oneupmanship.
Although the most charitably extracted content of the statement “calm down” may be true (“you seem to be acting very excited about this, but it would most likely be more useful to take a more calm approach”), it’s stated in a way that sounds like oneupmanship, and no explanation is given. What would work for me personally would be a well-thought-out reply explaining why my approach to the subject in question may be counterproductive, and serious explanations given for why certain emotions, such as “over excitement” may be contraindicated.
My guess is that this isn’t the mind projection fallacy though, as I’ve never had any success, nor virtually ever seen any, of people telling people to “calm down”, especially when no details are given. You seem to be operating under some theory like, “If it’s true, it’s useful.” Not so, clearly. Things need to be worded in a way that gets through. Anything else is arrogance, or some approach to human psychology that assumes we’re like robots, not reacting emotionally, and not susceptible to losing our rationality when things are stated the wrong way.
Telling someone to calm down, with no details given, when they think they really have something great, is nothing but reckless, if seen from the point of view of ‘trying to help’. I for one am not one for recklessness. Rational communication is a joint venture, where both parties must be careful in their wording, to navigate the messed up hardware we’re running on.
There’s “calm down” and there’s “are you sure you’re not having a manic episode right now?”. It could be actual actionable concern instead of just status jockeying noise.
Not so.
Nor am I. Hence the necessity of keeping a grip on oneself when enthusiasm begins to overwhelm consideration. Owen is behaving recklessly and saying things (like the edit in particular) that will give him negative consequences (because it is obnoxious and ill suited to the context). Sure, we could skip the polite advice stage and go straight to the ‘consequences’ part but that isn’t doing a kindness. If Owen happened to have the particular Berserk Button that you have described and so was unable to respond appropriately then it would be so much the worse for him. It would still be necessary to limit the amount of insanity on the site for the sake of everyone else.
Right, well the rest of my response still applies.
EDIT:
Sure, Owen has been behaving recklessly as well, but that doesn’t mean we should respond with recklessness of our own. Instead, as is always necessary, a charitable attitude and a careful disposition is necessary for changing most people’s minds about anything. (Notice though that in the thread with linkhyrule5, I admitted that I may be ascribing a harsher meaning to “calm down” than other people are.)
It’s pretty uncharitable of you to call what I was describing a “Berserk Button”. Makes it sound ridiculous or something, when what I was describing is something that’s built into everyone’s hardware, pretty much. I’ve spent my life toning down those sorts of emotional reactions, yet they’re still there, to some extent. Everyone has them, whether they admit it or not. You do too, and you’d be well-advised to start thinking of yourself in that light. It’s a fantasy if anyone thinks they’re rational enough to take the content of criticism without being affected by the presentation.
So much the worse for him? This is nothing but arrogance, thinking “if my approach doesn’t work, it’s they’re fault, not mine”. Again, rational communication is a joint venture. If you think just throwing out whatever you want, as recklessly as you want, will help anyone, you’re mistaken. Actually changing anyone’s mind requires a level of charitability that, ironically, I’m most likely not exemplifying in this post.
I agree with the last point, however. Sometimes writing for the gallery really is what’s advised. I guess I just reacted to what seemed like a lazy, uncharitable, reckless reply, with no obvious utility except as oneupmanship. But you bring up a good point, which is that you don’t want to let counterproductive behavior stand, where certain people in the gallery may incorporate them, when they otherwise wouldn’t have if you posted something. This makes ‘was it a good attempt to help the person you’re replying to’ no longer the only consideration, as I was assuming implicitly.
I replied because you were mistaken.
That really seems like it’s more true for anger, or similar emotions. When I’m just bouncing off the walls in optimism “calm down” works.
Well that’s interesting. I don’t know, could be me overgeneralizing from my own experience. At least where I grew up, “calm down” was never used charitably. It was always designed to be annoying oneupmanship. It was as if getting too excited wasn’t cool, because it meant you weren’t “mature enough” to be jaded, and that sort of thing.
(I’ve found it extremely difficult to shed associations from my time growing up, and despite years on the Internet, communicating with people all over the world, my dominant associations are often still just based on the culture I was exposed to during those formative years.)
… Huh.
Yeah, that’s definitely a cultural thing. I don’t think I’ve ever heard “calm down” used like that.
“Chill, bro,” and the like, definitely. “Calm down” was usually reserved for mature people and grown-ups :P.