I am wondering about a failure mode in applying this advice (and other advice of this type): While trying to apply it going to the meta-level and explaining what the goal is. For example saying: “Let’s try trust-kickstarters” and linking to this post. Using the meta-level may disrupt the object-level process and should probably be avoided.
Epistemic status: I have not read about this communication norm on LW or elsewhere but it has been brought to my attention a while ago and seems to be pretty standard in practice. It doesn’t seem to be related to high-context vs. low-context communication (See e.g. Decoupling vs Contextualising Norms or Culture Map).
For example saying: “Let’s try trust-kickstarters” and linking to this post. Using the meta-level may disrupt the object-level process and should probably be avoided.
That’s particularly why I’m hoping to get this into the groundwater so it’s seen as something that you might just do without it being a big deal that distracts everyone. (similarly, I think having the concept of “Guess/Ask/Tell culture” or “wait vs interrupt culture” as easy handles has been useful to me for navigating tricky conversations)
But, also: In the contexts where I have used this with some success, both parties were already invested enough and the conversation was tricky enough that stopping to say “okay, it looks like by default, this conversation won’t work, so we need to do something weird to make it work, and I think “Iterated Trust Kickstarter” is a frame that has a chance of actually working.”
(part of it is that I think Iterated Trust Kickstarters are a thing people already do intuitively, just putting a name to it, and the point of the name is more as a pointer to a concept people already had vaguely defined, than illustrating a whole new thing)
That’s particularly why I’m hoping to get this into the groundwater so it’s seen as something that you might just do without it being a big deal that distracts everyone.
Seems like you agree and have an intuition when and when not to use meta. Do you know of any systematic treatment of this boundary?
Well actually I just use meta All The Goddamn Time and sometimes it’s advisable and sometimes it’s not.
But, I guess my answer is: going meta tends to be seen as more annoying when your partner isn’t invested in the conversation. And ITK is disproportionately useful when your partner isn’t invested in the conversation. So it benefits disproportionately from already being in the water.
I also use meta frequently. I think it is part of some sub-cultures LW in particular (meta is even a signal in Automoderation). I just want to understand when it is going to work and when not.
I like the suggestion that meta and ITK are some kind of opposites.
I am wondering about a failure mode in applying this advice (and other advice of this type): While trying to apply it going to the meta-level and explaining what the goal is. For example saying: “Let’s try trust-kickstarters” and linking to this post. Using the meta-level may disrupt the object-level process and should probably be avoided.
Epistemic status: I have not read about this communication norm on LW or elsewhere but it has been brought to my attention a while ago and seems to be pretty standard in practice. It doesn’t seem to be related to high-context vs. low-context communication (See e.g. Decoupling vs Contextualising Norms or Culture Map).
That’s particularly why I’m hoping to get this into the groundwater so it’s seen as something that you might just do without it being a big deal that distracts everyone. (similarly, I think having the concept of “Guess/Ask/Tell culture” or “wait vs interrupt culture” as easy handles has been useful to me for navigating tricky conversations)
But, also: In the contexts where I have used this with some success, both parties were already invested enough and the conversation was tricky enough that stopping to say “okay, it looks like by default, this conversation won’t work, so we need to do something weird to make it work, and I think “Iterated Trust Kickstarter” is a frame that has a chance of actually working.”
(part of it is that I think Iterated Trust Kickstarters are a thing people already do intuitively, just putting a name to it, and the point of the name is more as a pointer to a concept people already had vaguely defined, than illustrating a whole new thing)
Seems like you agree and have an intuition when and when not to use meta. Do you know of any systematic treatment of this boundary?
Well actually I just use meta All The Goddamn Time and sometimes it’s advisable and sometimes it’s not.
But, I guess my answer is: going meta tends to be seen as more annoying when your partner isn’t invested in the conversation. And ITK is disproportionately useful when your partner isn’t invested in the conversation. So it benefits disproportionately from already being in the water.
I also use meta frequently. I think it is part of some sub-cultures LW in particular (meta is even a signal in Automoderation). I just want to understand when it is going to work and when not.
I like the suggestion that meta and ITK are some kind of opposites.