I think you underestimate Harry’s will to power. He was working on a cure for Alzheimer’s, but are there really people with Alzheimer’s in his home universe? As many as there are here?
As far as we know, exactly the same number. But I took the “Alhimer’s cure” to just be a test for an obvious exploit in the form of something that would appeal to Hermione and with approximately the desired complexity.
Hang on, what which comment are you replying to here? I had assumed you were talking about questioning Harry’s judgement (ie. overconfidence) regarding using Draco. But are you thinking that a concept based world has less potential for godlike power gain than a reductionist one?
I think Harry would want to have power where it could make the most difference.
His ideal outcome would probably include using his magical powers to get results which can be applied in both worlds, even if his effects are less godlike out here.
Ahh, gotcha. And from what I can tell Harry would want to get results in both worlds. In fact, he would quickly begin to consider this world to be ‘his’. It is similar to the kind of thinking he did when tranfiguring. From cognitive maps through molecules and atoms down to quantum configuration space. Just another step further. I would expect him to consider you and I with exactly the same priority as similar individuals that share his fictional emulation.
Now, as for what he can do to influence our world… that’s an interesting thought. Create a superintelligence and solve the AI Box problem with the added difficulty of having to explain to the outside world how to build the AI structure. It is not inconceivable (but still unlikely) that the ‘author’ or emulator does not, in fact, know how to build a superintelligence himself. It is possible to be able to create a fictional world with someone like Harry in it while naturally being an inferior (but faster) thinker.
Say Harry found out that he was living in fiction and in the process of updating raises the probability that he can achieve godhood in his fictional universe but assigns a far lower chance to significantly influencing the base world. Would Harry be pleased or displeased by this discovery? My guess: He’d be all distraught and angsty about it. But I think that is due to him having immature emotional responses. He is, I suggest, strictly better off in the newly discovered situation than in his original scheme.
I’m not quite sure that passing through cognitive maps, then molecules, then quantum configuration space, then timeless quantum mechanics, and then concepts in the mind of his pseudo-world ’s author quite makes sense as progression.
“Seeing-through” the successive “layers of the world” helping transfiguration might make some sense in a fictional world. (Though I have a bit of trouble with why exactly only the extremes, i.e. conceptual and then timeless physics, do something interesting, rather than the intermediate steps also doing new things.) I doesn’t quite make sense when considering all those layers knowingly imaginary layers above the conceptual level of the author’s mind.
I’m uncertain in which sense someone could be said to figure that out and still have a will of their own. It’s a bit beyond merely living in a simulation.
If ‘free will’ is compatible with physical determinism (including the quantum variety) then why can it not be similarly compatible with living in a world based on some guy’s thoughts? The same principles seem to apply.
I think the problem is a lack of detail. Harry isn’t being simulated down to the neuronal level, or even down to the brain region. ‘He’ is a loose set of rules and free-floating ideas that please Eliezer or survived his theories, a very small entity indeed. And the rest of his world is even more impoverished—the rest of the world may just be a few words like ‘the rest of the world’. Harry can’t even execute bounded loops unless Eliezer feels like formulating them and actually executing them.
If Harry discovered he were in fiction, his motivation to help the rest of the world would instantly vanish. In fact, the most moral thing he could do is to hide in his trunk forever—if a rape only happens when you go to rescue the rapee and the narration follows you, if the murders only happen because you went looking for murders, then out of sight, out of mind, out of reality. In a ‘real’ simulation, this would not be the case, even if the author would never permit a character to test this.
(He might still want to escape into our world if the author desires him to desire this, but help his world? His world can no more be helped than J.K Rowling can help Zanzibar in canon HP. There is no there there.)
I think fictional characters can be more than that. I don’t know how Eliezar experiences Harry, but some authors talk about their characters talking back to them, or resisting some plot twists.
This suggests to me that some characters are similar to full human self-images, though with less memories.
I think you underestimate Harry’s will to power. He was working on a cure for Alzheimer’s, but are there really people with Alzheimer’s in his home universe? As many as there are here?
As far as we know, exactly the same number. But I took the “Alhimer’s cure” to just be a test for an obvious exploit in the form of something that would appeal to Hermione and with approximately the desired complexity.
Hang on, what which comment are you replying to here? I had assumed you were talking about questioning Harry’s judgement (ie. overconfidence) regarding using Draco. But are you thinking that a concept based world has less potential for godlike power gain than a reductionist one?
I think Harry would want to have power where it could make the most difference.
His ideal outcome would probably include using his magical powers to get results which can be applied in both worlds, even if his effects are less godlike out here.
I think we must be talking about something different. I thought Harry was only in one world.
I’m heading off into wild hypothesis land.
If Harry figured out that he was living in fiction, what would he want to do?
Ahh, gotcha. And from what I can tell Harry would want to get results in both worlds. In fact, he would quickly begin to consider this world to be ‘his’. It is similar to the kind of thinking he did when tranfiguring. From cognitive maps through molecules and atoms down to quantum configuration space. Just another step further. I would expect him to consider you and I with exactly the same priority as similar individuals that share his fictional emulation.
Now, as for what he can do to influence our world… that’s an interesting thought. Create a superintelligence and solve the AI Box problem with the added difficulty of having to explain to the outside world how to build the AI structure. It is not inconceivable (but still unlikely) that the ‘author’ or emulator does not, in fact, know how to build a superintelligence himself. It is possible to be able to create a fictional world with someone like Harry in it while naturally being an inferior (but faster) thinker.
Say Harry found out that he was living in fiction and in the process of updating raises the probability that he can achieve godhood in his fictional universe but assigns a far lower chance to significantly influencing the base world. Would Harry be pleased or displeased by this discovery? My guess: He’d be all distraught and angsty about it. But I think that is due to him having immature emotional responses. He is, I suggest, strictly better off in the newly discovered situation than in his original scheme.
I’m not quite sure that passing through cognitive maps, then molecules, then quantum configuration space, then timeless quantum mechanics, and then concepts in the mind of his pseudo-world ’s author quite makes sense as progression.
“Seeing-through” the successive “layers of the world” helping transfiguration might make some sense in a fictional world. (Though I have a bit of trouble with why exactly only the extremes, i.e. conceptual and then timeless physics, do something interesting, rather than the intermediate steps also doing new things.) I doesn’t quite make sense when considering all those layers knowingly imaginary layers above the conceptual level of the author’s mind.
Whatever his writer wants him to?
I’m uncertain in which sense someone could be said to figure that out and still have a will of their own. It’s a bit beyond merely living in a simulation.
If ‘free will’ is compatible with physical determinism (including the quantum variety) then why can it not be similarly compatible with living in a world based on some guy’s thoughts? The same principles seem to apply.
I think the problem is a lack of detail. Harry isn’t being simulated down to the neuronal level, or even down to the brain region. ‘He’ is a loose set of rules and free-floating ideas that please Eliezer or survived his theories, a very small entity indeed. And the rest of his world is even more impoverished—the rest of the world may just be a few words like ‘the rest of the world’. Harry can’t even execute bounded loops unless Eliezer feels like formulating them and actually executing them.
If Harry discovered he were in fiction, his motivation to help the rest of the world would instantly vanish. In fact, the most moral thing he could do is to hide in his trunk forever—if a rape only happens when you go to rescue the rapee and the narration follows you, if the murders only happen because you went looking for murders, then out of sight, out of mind, out of reality. In a ‘real’ simulation, this would not be the case, even if the author would never permit a character to test this.
(He might still want to escape into our world if the author desires him to desire this, but help his world? His world can no more be helped than J.K Rowling can help Zanzibar in canon HP. There is no there there.)
I think fictional characters can be more than that. I don’t know how Eliezar experiences Harry, but some authors talk about their characters talking back to them, or resisting some plot twists.
This suggests to me that some characters are similar to full human self-images, though with less memories.
Haha, so Harry can “truly escape” by means of Eliezer going mad and imagining himself to be the escaped Harry. Or maybe they could time-share.
I believe I’m speaking for all of us in stating that I hope he isn’t aiming for that end. ;)