Harry is firmly on the ‘get absolute power’ path. Probably he still thinks he’s being cute or knowing when he talks about becoming God. His resolution not to become the next Dark Lord doesn’t look too healthy now, though.
Harry seems incapable of seeing the flaws in a moral system he apparently acquired by reading science fiction and fantasy, barring almost being Sectumsemprad by a very angry wizard. Why does he think that having read books with monomyth plots is sufficient reason to try to act like the heroes of such books—what is he, eleven years old? At the same time, he understands and can nervelessly put to use Quirrell’s very subtle lesson in levels of deception. Very odd, that.
Is one of the reasons Quirrell set up those Occlumency lessons that Harry would discover for himself “how reproducible human thoughts were when you reset people back to the same initial conditions and exposed them to the same stimuli”—and thereby come to treat humans as simple machines that one can use like puppets? As a strategy to bring someone over to the Dark Side, that’s brilliant.
Then we get to Harry being placed in the same conditions as Lily Potter, and reacting differently—more humanely. Because he reads science fiction! That’s outrageous. Surely this kind of narrative based morality, where you imagine what the good protagonist would do and then do that, is going to be a piece of cake for Quirrell to subvert.
Is one of the reasons Quirrell set up those Occlumency lessons that Harry would discover for himself “how reproducible human thoughts were when you reset people back to the same initial conditions and exposed them to the same stimuli”—and thereby come to treat humans as simple machines that one can use like puppets? As a strategy to bring someone over to the Dark Side, that’s brilliant.
Indeterminate at this point. (By which I mean, even if Eliezer didn’t intend Quirrel to have those reasons, he could easily make Quirrel have had those reasons.)
The reasons given earlier are quite enough to justify the lessons: Quirrel doesn’t want Harry to be easily scanned by either Snape or Dumbledore for obvious reasons, and once he threw his hat in the ring, a neutral third party was the only viable option—and such a neutral third party can only remain neutral by being Obliviated since anyone in the know about Voldemort is, eo ipso, a member of one faction or another.
Just read Chapter 27. Haven’t read the original books, but Wikipedia says Snape was a secret agent of good because of his past love for Lily. Nice job turning Snape dark, Harry. Considering your friendships with Draco and Quirrell, I don’t see what you’re doing out of Slytherin.
Also, the chapter reads a lot like Sword of Good. It’s not a bad thing per se because a good story needs to be retold several times before it comes out right, but in this iteration the hero’s epiphany that “woah, the world contains a lot of pain, gotta do something about it” came out quite a bit weaker. The protagonist in Sword of Good had a device that relayed the world’s pain to him, but Harry has to settle with imagining other people in unfamiliar situations. Eliezer could make this plot point hit harder next time by making his protagonists actually see pain and suffering up close.
Just read Chapter 27. Haven’t read the original books, but Wikipedia says Snape was a secret agent of good because of his past love for Lily. Nice job turning Snape dark, Harry. Considering your friendships with Draco and Quirrell, I don’t see what you’re doing out of Slytherin.
No, no, this mistake suggests the opposite. No Slytherin with Harry’s preferences, intellect and level of development would ever make such an idiotic mistake. A Ravenclaw might. Harry gave the wise, or at least what he considered to be the correct answer, given very little regard to what he was trying to achieve. Self absorbed know it all.
Don’t even let me start on the pretensions crap about knowing what is good, and more importantly what is wise, by reading it in a fantasy book. Even Hermione isn’t that much of a git.
Also, the chapter reads a lot like Sword of Good. It’s not a bad thing per se because a good story needs to be retold several times before it comes out right. But in this iteration, the hero’s epihany that “woah, the world contains a lot of pain, gotta do something about it” sounds quite a bit weaker than in the last one. The protagonist in Sword of Good had a device that relayed the world’s pain to him, but Harry has to settle with imagining other people in unfamiliar situations. Eliezer could make this plot point hit harder next time by making his protagonists actually see pain and suffering up close.
My take: That part reads like a fairy tale that we tell children. It doesn’t really convey the difference between Harry being naive, having terrible boundaries and generally being emotionally weak and Harry recognizing ‘simple on the other side of compexity’ that could apply to constructing value systems. Some of cousin_it’s suggestions would help in this regard.
I just read Chapter 27. My thoughts:
“Mr. Bester”—great reference.
Harry is firmly on the ‘get absolute power’ path. Probably he still thinks he’s being cute or knowing when he talks about becoming God. His resolution not to become the next Dark Lord doesn’t look too healthy now, though.
Harry seems incapable of seeing the flaws in a moral system he apparently acquired by reading science fiction and fantasy, barring almost being Sectumsemprad by a very angry wizard. Why does he think that having read books with monomyth plots is sufficient reason to try to act like the heroes of such books—what is he, eleven years old? At the same time, he understands and can nervelessly put to use Quirrell’s very subtle lesson in levels of deception. Very odd, that.
Is one of the reasons Quirrell set up those Occlumency lessons that Harry would discover for himself “how reproducible human thoughts were when you reset people back to the same initial conditions and exposed them to the same stimuli”—and thereby come to treat humans as simple machines that one can use like puppets? As a strategy to bring someone over to the Dark Side, that’s brilliant.
Then we get to Harry being placed in the same conditions as Lily Potter, and reacting differently—more humanely. Because he reads science fiction! That’s outrageous. Surely this kind of narrative based morality, where you imagine what the good protagonist would do and then do that, is going to be a piece of cake for Quirrell to subvert.
Indeterminate at this point. (By which I mean, even if Eliezer didn’t intend Quirrel to have those reasons, he could easily make Quirrel have had those reasons.)
The reasons given earlier are quite enough to justify the lessons: Quirrel doesn’t want Harry to be easily scanned by either Snape or Dumbledore for obvious reasons, and once he threw his hat in the ring, a neutral third party was the only viable option—and such a neutral third party can only remain neutral by being Obliviated since anyone in the know about Voldemort is, eo ipso, a member of one faction or another.
Just read Chapter 27. Haven’t read the original books, but Wikipedia says Snape was a secret agent of good because of his past love for Lily. Nice job turning Snape dark, Harry. Considering your friendships with Draco and Quirrell, I don’t see what you’re doing out of Slytherin.
Also, the chapter reads a lot like Sword of Good. It’s not a bad thing per se because a good story needs to be retold several times before it comes out right, but in this iteration the hero’s epiphany that “woah, the world contains a lot of pain, gotta do something about it” came out quite a bit weaker. The protagonist in Sword of Good had a device that relayed the world’s pain to him, but Harry has to settle with imagining other people in unfamiliar situations. Eliezer could make this plot point hit harder next time by making his protagonists actually see pain and suffering up close.
No, no, this mistake suggests the opposite. No Slytherin with Harry’s preferences, intellect and level of development would ever make such an idiotic mistake. A Ravenclaw might. Harry gave the wise, or at least what he considered to be the correct answer, given very little regard to what he was trying to achieve. Self absorbed know it all.
Don’t even let me start on the pretensions crap about knowing what is good, and more importantly what is wise, by reading it in a fantasy book. Even Hermione isn’t that much of a git.
My take: That part reads like a fairy tale that we tell children. It doesn’t really convey the difference between Harry being naive, having terrible boundaries and generally being emotionally weak and Harry recognizing ‘simple on the other side of compexity’ that could apply to constructing value systems. Some of cousin_it’s suggestions would help in this regard.
Also, I’ve been trying to come up with science fiction that has forgiveness as a primary value, and I can’t think of anything.
Ursula Le Guin, “Four Ways To Forgiveness”
That too. For stories instilling forgiveness I must look to those generated for the purpose of religious indoctrination.